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  1. glad2bhere is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2007 4:12pm


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Which sources did you need, Maverick?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
  2. MaartenSFS is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2007 7:19pm


     Style: Sanda, Taijiquan ( Chen)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DCS
    Not bad for an English language teacher: Mistaking "sinophilia" with "sinophobia"...., writing "Dillusion"...

    But what's funnier:


    http://www.bullshido.net/modules.php...commentid=1529
    I smell a bit of homophobia here :P
    Oke... The first one I admit was my mistake. The second one... Ever heard of a typo? And about that quote; I do not retract my statement. (Though my opinions about some Qinna techniques have changed, I prefer a good throw, followed by strikes to the face, to ending up rolling on the ground, especially when people are trying to kick my face in). I hope that your other senses are more acute than your olfactory sense.

    ---------------------

    Also, TKD could use Sanda's Jietui (Kick catching/takedowns) techniques.

    - Maarten Sebastiaan Franks Spijker
  3. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/14/2007 8:12pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 柔道

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I wasn't talking about your opinions about Qinna, i was referring to the "...arseholes go dismissing it (And most likely go roll around with sweaty men in Brazil)".

    Still sounds a bit homophobic to me.

    And yes i have heard about typos; yours was a magnificent example on how to fail two letters in a single small world. A non native english speaker like me expected more from an English Language teacher.

    In any case, i have to recognize you did an interesting contribution to this tread pointing to the intereresting possibility of adding kick catching/takedowns Sanda style.

    You can see similar moves in this Taekkyon clip:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTAuId2U06s

    Also, I remember one of my TKD instructors, around the early 80's, who used to do sweeps (like the ones you can see in American Kickboxing and Shotokan) in sparring, even when they were "illegal" under competition rules but... he was the instructor.
  4. MaartenSFS is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2007 11:38pm


     Style: Sanda, Taijiquan ( Chen)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DCS
    I wasn't talking about your opinions about Qinna, i was referring to the "...arseholes go dismissing it (And most likely go roll around with sweaty men in Brazil)".

    Still sounds a bit homophobic to me.
    I know that you were talking about that. That's why I stated my preference. Also, I wasn't all that serious in the first place, though my sarcasm can't really be unsterstood through text-only communication.

    Quote Originally Posted by DCS
    And yes, I have heard about typos; yours was a magnificent example on how to fail two letters in a single small world. A non-native English-speaker like me expected more from an English Language teacher..
    1] I don't think that making a typing mistake (One of very few, I may add) online is a good way to judge one's language ability.
    2] I, too, am not a native speaker.
    3] #2 is really obvious from my name. I'm your typical John Doe, arsebandit.

    Quote Originally Posted by DCS
    In any case, I have to recognize you MADE an interesting contribution to this tHread pointing to the interesting possibility of adding kick catching/takedowns Sanda style.

    You can see similar moves in this Taekkyon clip:

    [Insert film clip here]

    Also, I remember one of my TKD instructors, around the early 80's, who used to do sweeps (like the ones you can see in American Kickboxing and Shotokan) in sparring, even when they were "illegal" under competition rules but... he was the instructor.
    Thank you and that clip was interesting, though I am skeptical of Taekkyon. One of the takedown techniques seemed EXACTLY like one I just learned about a month ago. And the way they straightened out their supporting leg when their opponent got a hold of their other leg is the same that we are taught here. Now if they put more power behind their techniques, trained full contact, and didn't dance during actual fights (Not that I know if they do or not) they might be on to something.

    - Maarten Sebastiaan Franks Spijker
    Last edited by MaartenSFS; 2/14/2007 11:43pm at .
  5. Matt W. is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/15/2007 12:13pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo, TKD BB

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    However, it does not fit with the historical facts.
    Actually, it does. I don't think anyone would dispute that there were "collaberators" in Korea during the Japanese occupation. However, you have failed to show any connection between that fact and the development of TKD. Furthermore, post WWII KMA have always been ultra nationalistic, to the point to completely denying the Japanese influence in modern KMA. And finally, for there to have been a consipiracy to replace "true" KMA with the Japanese descended hybrid arts we have to today, you would first have to show that there were such arts still extant after the occupation. And it is pretty much excepted that there weren't. Even the existence of real Teakkyon is debatable.

    Besides, at least on the ITF side of TKD, many of the founders claimed to be active in anti-Japanese movements and were quite vitriolic in their denouncement of the occupation AND puppet military dictatorships.
  6. glad2bhere is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2007 1:39pm


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt W.
    Actually, it does. I don't think anyone would dispute that there were "collaberators" in Korea during the Japanese occupation. However, you have failed to show any connection between that fact and the development of TKD. Furthermore, post WWII KMA have always been ultra nationalistic, to the point to completely denying the Japanese influence in modern KMA. And finally, for there to have been a consipiracy to replace "true" KMA with the Japanese descended hybrid arts we have to today, you would first have to show that there were such arts still extant after the occupation. And it is pretty much excepted that there weren't. Even the existence of real Teakkyon is debatable.

    Besides, at least on the ITF side of TKD, many of the founders claimed to be active in anti-Japanese movements and were quite vitriolic in their denouncement of the occupation AND puppet military dictatorships.
    I'm sorry, Matt. I don't know what to say except that you are mistaken. Please allow me to respond in an orderly fashion.

    a.) The traditions prior to the Occupation are recorded in both the MYTBTJ and the MJB and were practiced by the Korean military until events between 1890 and 1910 caused the military to be disbanded when Japan took control of security of the precincts of Seoul in 1907. The disaffected returned to their homes, emigrated to Manchuria or left the theatre completely. Their skill sets went with them. At least one Hapkido tradition (KUK SOOL WON) has a provenance in the person of their founders grandfather to attest to this connection. Further such traditions as SIPALKI, Korean Iron Palm, Guild of the Peddlers and the SON Monastery have all historical provenance in sheltering these traditions.

    b.) The training of all but one of the founders (and he is suspect as well) in either SHOTOKAN or SHUDOKAN in order to produce the first six TKD kwans is a matter of record. What has only recently come to light is the organized effort on the part of the Collaborationist government and the Japanese Occupation to mandate the training in Japanese traditions so as to prepare vulnerable Korean males for conscription into the Japanese army (See: http://www.dbpia.co.kr/view/ar_view...Menu=&topMenu1= and http://www.uriminzokkiri.com/newspa...egi2/htm/20.htm ). This is not to likewise mention that policy of the Collaborating government and the Japanese Occupation to include such activities as Judo and Kendo in the Korean school system beginning in the 1930-s. In response a number of agencies sought to teach Japanese material which created an opportunity for individuals to train in various skills. My own sword teacher recalls quite clearly that a number of schools taught Japanese traditions when supervised and taught Korean material to Korean students when un-supervised. My own sword training is a direct result of this experience.

    c.) Lastly, let me say that the acrobatic nature of TKD has no provenance in Korean history. Research into those sources available demostrate that military traditions and training were eminently pragmatic and that such acrobatic and aerial techniques cannot be found in Korean traditions prior to the institution of Federalist Chinese Schools following the 1911 Revolution. In otherwords, there were and are traditions in Korea but therse are not researched or promoted because of the heavy pressures to dissuade their recognition by the pro-Japanese elements in the Korean government. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
  7. Matt W. is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/15/2007 2:28pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo, TKD BB

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm sorry, did you just cite Kuk Sool Won (one of the worst offenders in KMA for fabricating history) as proof of the existance of traditional Korean MA post WWII? Because, truthfully, that just about kills any credibility you may have had (no offense).

    The training of all but one of the founders (and he is suspect as well) in either SHOTOKAN or SHUDOKAN in order to produce the first six TKD kwans is a matter of record.
    That is not under debate, and does not prove your point. What is in question here (by you) is the intent of the TKD founders in how they continued to develop those arts post occupation. The truth is, they took those arts and tried to Koreanize them by fabricating dubious ties to Korean history and preoccupation Korean MA, and by modifiying the forms and some of the techniques. In so doing their intent was to change them into Korean arts, not disguise Japanese arts because they were secretly still all pro-Japanese, as seems to be your assertion.

    Lastly, let me say that the acrobatic nature of TKD has no provenance in Korean history.
    So, (historically speaking) Taekkyon was not a traditional KMA that focused on kicking? And, I have it on good authority that kicking someone in the face was a cultural norm in Korea, similar to "putting up your dukes" was in western culture.

    Frankly, you keep saying I'm wrong, but haven't been able to put forth a cogent argument as to why. And you citing KSW as a source is a HUGE red flag.
  8. glad2bhere is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2007 5:21pm


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sorry, Matt. Its really hard to be concise and economical regarding such large pieces of history. I'll work to be more cogent.

    You had supported the usual position as do many that no Krean arts survived through the Occupation. The examples I gave were venues for such survival. I agree that I do not care for the way that some people have abused the material (again KUK SOOL WON is a fine example). But you said that no traditions survived and all I did was give examples that some traditions had.

    My sense is that you support the idea that Koreans took Japanese material and "re-labelled it" as Korean as though they had no other option but to use Korean material. I am supporting the idea that they had other options but could not or did not use those options because of the policies of the administration. Does this help?

    As fars as TAEK KYON being traditional I am not sure where you are going. I agree that Taek Kyon is traditional but not in the acrobatic way that it its modern counterpart is presented. Further TKD which is essentially a Japanese art, had the high acrobatic kicking mixed in. Such kicking has never been a typical part of either Korean OR Northern Chinese arts. These are modern conventions. Thats the point I am making. Does this help?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Last edited by glad2bhere; 2/15/2007 5:25pm at .
  9. Matt W. is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/15/2007 6:30pm

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     Style: Judo, TKD BB

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My sense is that you support the idea that Koreans took Japanese material and "re-labelled it" as Korean as though they had no other option but to use Korean material. I am supporting the idea that they had other options but could not or did not use those options because of the policies of the administration. Does this help?
    I would say that does a fair job of summarizing the argument.

    I agree that Taek Kyon is traditional but not in the acrobatic way that it its modern counterpart is presented.
    Well, the jumping and flying kicks (which is what I assume you mean by "acrobatic") are certainly a modern invention. I mean, Choi Hong Hi pretty much admitted as much in his memoirs (which, by the way, you should check out my thread on them). However, what I meant by bringing up Taekkyon is that an emphasis on kicking, including high kicks, was already present in KMA. Therefor the same emphasis in TKD is consistent with such KMA (even if not directly related).

    And for the record, it is my understanding that KSW's claim that it is a "true" traditional Korean Art (as opposed to a relabled Japanese knock-off like TKD) is as patently false as is TKD's claim of being 2000 years old.
  10. glad2bhere is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2007 10:53pm


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt W.
    I would say that does a fair job of summarizing the argument.

    My sense, then, is that we would need to show that the environment was predjudiced in favor of the Japanese traditions, yes. I felt that I showed that by identifying policies and people who advocated for Japanese material over Korean. What I think remains is to provide the other half of the position and show that there were Korean materials that could have been promoted instead of the Japanese material, at least after the war, yes?

    Well, the jumping and flying kicks (which is what I assume you mean by "acrobatic") are certainly a modern invention. I mean, Choi Hong Hi pretty much admitted as much in his memoirs (which, by the way, you should check out my thread on them). However, what I meant by bringing up Taekkyon is that an emphasis on kicking, including high kicks, was already present in KMA. Therefor the same emphasis in TKD is consistent with such KMA (even if not directly related).
    Yes, I agree. The high kicking, jumping and flying kicking are pretty much new conventions. (BTW: If you can cite the thread you mentioned it would be much appreciated. I'm always up for a good read.) What I have not been able to find are provenance for these kicking methods in KMA prior to 1911. From the research that I have done into the KWON BUP chapter of the MYTBTJ I am led to believe that unarmed fighting was much more akin to CHEN TCC or Northern Long Fist than anything even close to Japanese SHOTOKAN Karate.

    And for the record, it is my understanding that KSW's claim that it is a "true" traditional Korean Art (as opposed to a relabled Japanese knock-off like TKD) is as patently false as is TKD's claim of being 2000 years old.
    Just so there is no confusion, let me say that I am in agreement with you about KSW claim. As I said before my invoking them was only to point up how Korean materials could have made their way from before the Occupation, through it and into a modern context. It is not that all of KSW is garbage. There are a variety of materials that have been patched together. Where I think SUH In Hyuk went wrong was in representing that KSW as a cohesive art came down to us through the generations. Its the same garbage as LEE Joo Bang did with HwaRangDo. However, that is not to say that there are not segments of what they do that have made it to modern day from before the Occupation. Thoughts?

    Good stuff and much appreciated!

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
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