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  1. wakinonioi is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/25/2007 10:35am


     Style: Wrestling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander108
    Ironically enough, the lesson the other night at the temple was that a teacher should not provide answers to his students, but rather seek to clear away the student's confusion so that the student can come to his or her own answers.

    Socrates was at your temple the other night?
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  2. kwoww is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/25/2007 11:06am


     Style: punching bag / crew jitsu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by emboesso
    I had no idea Socrates was Jewish.
    He probably was. :icon_colo
  3. glad2bhere is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/25/2007 3:04pm


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by emboesso
    Bruce, sometimes knowing too much history can interfere with seeing the obvious. Your account of the Japanese occupiers beginning a martial arts Phys Ed program is no doubt correct. However, to then expand that, based in part on a no-doubt politically motivated list of collaborators, to conclude that TKD's founding fathers were merely carrying out the Phys Ed program Japan started is a bit of stretch.

    And General Choi is neither the founder of, nor the voice of, TKD.

    Considering the political climate, the wars, the poverty, the severity of the training in the kwans (6-8 hours daily, 5-6 days a week), I can not conclude that they were undertaking a leisure sport. It would be the equivalent of a bunch of desperate Iraqis right now running out and buying golf clubs and playing golf all day, everyday. It wouldn't make any sense.
    And I agree. I don't think anyone invested themselves in a "leisure sport". What I think is that the climate of the country during the Occupation encouraged Japanese traditions over anything else. When the war was over pro-Japanese individuals retained their positions in the government and there was prejudicial consideration given to those activities that had heavy Japanese influence over reverting to the original Korean materials. We see the same thing in our own schools and communities where "American Sports" can get dollars, facilities and consideration where less mainstream sports such as Rugby, Cricket or Polo have to make-do as best they can. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
  4. Bugeisha is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/25/2007 5:14pm


     Style: Kyokushin

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MaartenSFS
    I am far from a Sinophile. Or I wouldn't be living in China, studying Chinese, and have a Chinese wife. ;) And I don't hate Korea, I just hate TKD. If you all feel so excited trying to defend TKD you should at least be able to support your opinions with good, clean reasons. I don't think that this is asking too much. And thank you about my wife. =P

    - Maarten Sebastiaan Franks Spijker
    You don't actually know what that word means, do you?

    Edit: Already pointed out? Damn my coming to this thread so late!
  5. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/28/2007 5:47pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by emboesso
    I would disagree that Olympic TKD is even TKD. It lacks the characteristics that separated TKD from karate. If it had developed into what it is now, and kept those characteristics, I would consider it a new development in TKD. But that is not the case, so I will freely ignore this "that".
    Interesting.

    What characteristics would those be?

    In my opinion, in developing a kicking sport built around technical innovation, Olympic TKD made the first true concerted move away from Japanese karate (for better or for worse) to become an art on its own.

    The problem here is two-fold.

    One, every other aspect of Kukki Taegwondo was left to stagnate while the focus on Olympic sparring narrowed to only on kicking in an extremely limited fashion. What could have been the best thing ever for TKD became the worst.

    Secondly, rather than credit the innovation of many of the early founders of TKD (post-Gwan), government interference forced the "ANCIENT KRN PRYDE~!~!" mythology upon us, which resulted in stagnation on its own, as now TKD had a 2,000 year old history. The puny innovations of its modern practitioners are but insults to the great Hwarang warriors.


    Quote Originally Posted by emboesso
    For TKD to exist, in either theory or practice, there has to be some fundamental characteristic to it to build upon.
    Yes.

    It's called stepping on people's faces.
  6. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/28/2007 5:51pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    However I am still waiting for someone to substantiate that TKD was ever intended as anything other than a Korean Physical Education venue.
    I am still waiting for someone to substantiate that TKD was every intended to be ONLY a Korean Physical Education venue.

    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    Further I don't hear from anyone such as CHOI Hong Hi that he ever saw it as much more than a way of conditioning and building confidence in military personnel.
    Military hand to hand combat training implies combative intent, regardless of whether or not those ideas are seen as applicable in today's climate.

    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    My sense is that if people want to use it as a form of combat, it can probably be modified in much the same way as Funakoshi's SHOTOKAN had to be re-engineered into a fighting form and away from competition (See: Oshima). Thoughts?
    The problem here in the macrocosmic sense is that we are talking about karate (TKD included) in a gross sense. Some systems are very much based on physical education, while others are combative, and others seen as spiritual development systems. However, the technical similarities between all of these are so similiar that differences of intent render differences of system to be minor. Re-engineering Shotokan to combat just means looking at Matsumura Orthodox Shorin-ryu.
  7. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/28/2007 5:55pm

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     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by emboesso
    I was in a drunken stupor last night and thought about you, but not because your drunken adventures as so well cataloged in your training blog.
    If you were younger, hotter, and definitely female, I would say this was a good thing, and likely hop the next AMTRAK to the city. As it is, I am just a little scared.

    Quote Originally Posted by emboesso
    PS: Have you ever YouTubed any of those eastern European ITF tournaments, particularly Poland? That stuff is way "alive", so much so I'm surprised people aren't killed doing it. It is well beyond Olympic TKD.
    Agreed, and my hope is that the current talks will let some of this filter into Kukki TKD.

    However, the difference between the two is vast.

    Where many ITF tournaments are medium contact, and a few are full contact...

    All Olympic matches share the same level of force. You do not have tag sparring in Olympic TKD.

    So yes, the ITFers doing it right are golden, but they are not a majority.
  8. glad2bhere is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2007 1:44pm


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "......Quote:
    Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    Further I don't hear from anyone such as CHOI Hong Hi that he ever saw it as much more than a way of conditioning and building confidence in military personnel.


    Military hand to hand combat training implies combative intent, regardless of whether or not those ideas are seen as applicable in today's climate....."

    True, enough. CHOI Hong Hi also stipulated that people who practiced TKD should avail themselves of arts such as Hapkido so as to make thier hoshinsool more well-rounded. Part of this makes me feel proud to feel that Choi recognized the effectiveness of thse arts. But I am also curious that the did not do more to make his own material more combat worthy along the lines of full-contact kick-boxing. Now, true, this might have been the nature of TKD early-on and things may have gotten away from it. Still, it seems strange, yes? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
  9. StuartA is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2007 2:58pm


     Style: Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander108
    I am still waiting for someone to substantiate that TKD was every intended to be ONLY a Korean Physical Education venue.
    I agree.. I have never heard claims to consolidate this!!



    Military hand to hand combat training implies combative intent, regardless of whether or not those ideas are seen as applicable in today's climate.
    Unlike many martial arts, Ch'ang Hon TKD HAS actually been used in Combat.. I even gave an account of this in the book that I wrote, from a Korean general.


    The problem here in the macrocosmic sense is that we are talking about karate (TKD included) in a gross sense. Some systems are very much based on physical education, while others are combative, and others seen as spiritual development systems. However, the technical similarities between all of these are so similiar that differences of intent render differences of system to be minor. Re-engineering Shotokan to combat just means looking at Matsumura Orthodox Shorin-ryu.
    Yup.. what he said :drunken_s

    Stuart
  10. StuartA is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/01/2007 3:02pm


     Style: Ch'ang Hon Taekwon-do

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    True, enough. CHOI Hong Hi also stipulated that people who practiced TKD should avail themselves of arts such as Hapkido so as to make thier hoshinsool more well-rounded.
    Where does he stipulate that? The Hapkido connection, AFAIA was that he brought in some Hapkido techniques for hosinsul, but again took out a lot of the "flowy" stuff, as it wasnt direct enough! So he utilized some of the training methods but more in a TKD mode, than Hapkido mode!

    But I am also curious that the did not do more to make his own material more combat worthy along the lines of full-contact kick-boxing.
    I would say Vietnam War was more than Combat worthy myself, maybe even moreso than Kick Boxing!


    Stuart
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