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  1. glad2bhere is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/23/2007 8:58am


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ".....Because there are so many things out there operating under the name "TKD". What I do looks a little bit like what you do, and what some other people do looks nothing like what I do. Yet are we all truly TKD just "because"?...."


    Aaahhhh............... and there is the rub!!!!

    There are people on this thread who are talking about TKD as a very clearly defined Korean activity with history and curriculum and hierarchy and all the rest. There are ALSO people who are talking about TKD which they have experienced which is effectively a "generic umbrella" for whatever someone has whip-stitched together.

    As a Hapkido teacher I have personally witnessed many places where a person has mixed a bit of this and that and represented it as "Hapkido." How many times have we passed MA schools where a guy represents that he teaches "TAEKWONDO" as well as eight other arts all under one roof? What about the guy who took a little karate and a little Judo and calls what he does "Hapkido"? How many times have we seen inner city schools whre somebody takes a bit of this and that and calls it "Kung Fu"? So.... are we discussing TKD as a legitimate art that could use some improvement, or are we discussing every possible instance where the term "TKD" is used in any possible way to represent what some person is marketing? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
  2. Nick K is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/23/2007 11:50am


     Style: MT, Boxing,ITF TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think the multiplicity of styles - ranging from those 'approved' by national/international organisations to those taught across a few schools to those taught by an individual instructor - reflect the relative youth of TKD - not brand new, and a long way from maturity.

    For an art to be consistent, it needs to be either very, very new - i.e. so far taught by only a few with a clear lineage going back to the founder(s) (BJJ, anyone?) or well established with a simple clear, rule set driven by a long history of competition (boxing). I won't be surprised if the 'quality control' on BJJ dimnishes as the art is disseminated, unless sustained by strict competition rules.

    TKD will continue to evolve - and it will be the WTF style that predominates, I expect, as it has been given credence by inclusion in the Olympics. A shame, I feel. I love my TKD club, but having taken it up in my late 30s to support my daughter, struggle to develop the kicking as well as I would have done as a teenager. If the hand techniques continue to be de-emphasised - not by my instructor, I hasten to add - people like me (old and stiff) will look elsewhere for our MA/SD.
  3. glad2bhere is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/23/2007 11:50am


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    OK. This is where I ALWAYS get my a$$ into trouble. So I will disclaim that what follows is my view and only my particular view of the Hapkido community.

    What you have stated about TKD is exactly the same thing that I have experienced in HKD. EXACTLY! And it continues on that way because thats the way the HKD community wants it. With so much variance, personal interpretation, opinion and background, one finds that there is very little accountability for what is being taught and that is usually just fine with about 60% of the Hapkido community. In this way they get to use the term "Hapkido" to describe what they do while having a "real good reason" why they don't know all the material. I see the same thing TKD.

    If we are going to talk about TKD as an established art then my question is, how much of the standard art do people actually learn before they run out and put up their own shingle? If their art teaches forms do the students learn all of the forms before they open their own shop? If the art does sparring, has Mr. Cho-Dan learned to spar competently before he starts his own place? If a person lays claim to a particular version or kwan have they learned the whole curriculum for that kwan or only what they like, or do well? I know in Hapkido there is WAY too much "cherry-picking" by folks who claim to know what is "good" or "bad" well before they have an understanding of what the art is about. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
  4. glad2bhere is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/23/2007 12:23pm


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If what I am researching is at all accurate, there was a huge movement in the Pacific Rim countries to protect their traditions against the encroachment of Western Physical Education methods. I would go so far as to say that THIS was probably a huge motive behind ITOSU getting OKINAWA-TE into Okinawan schools and FUNAKOSHI doing the same with KARATE-DO. The Japanese tried to protect their traditions by the conservatives starting the BUTOKUKAI while the moderates and liberals such as KANO developed martials sports like Judo and Kendo.

    Honestly, from what I am uncovering in the late Occupational materials, there was quite a drive to get the Korean males prepped for conscription into the Japanese war effort and I suggest that THIS is the actual root of what we have come to call TKD. Korean traditions were simply not structured enough to satisfy the conditioning plans of the administration so they used the Japanese more highly structured activities. After the war these were kept on by former Japanese supporters. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
  5. Nick K is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/23/2007 12:28pm


     Style: MT, Boxing,ITF TKD

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    OK. If we are going to talk about TKD as an established art then my question is, how much of the standard art do people actually learn before they run out and put up their own shingle?
    As with all things humans do, it depends on individual motivation. Some will start a business as soon as they have a product they think people will buy - others will teach a select few students for the love of it. Who will be a better teacher? I don't know - my TKD instructor makes a good living but he's a damn fine instructor and deserves to. TMA have been popular for the past 20 years - perhaps beginning to fade a bit now - but there has been no standardisation in MA instruction - or precious little - so no assurance of adequate quality. Wait - it'll come. Our society is obsessed with qualifications and the profession - it should be a profession - of MA instructor won't be immune.
  6. glad2bhere is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/23/2007 12:33pm


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Nick, I see you are from the UK. I know they have some pretty tight regulations about opening a school there. Does any of that guidance have anything to do with content? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
  7. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/24/2007 4:09pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Gentlemen, let's keep this thread in context.

    Cultural discussions belong in Sociocide.

    The topic at hand is the nature of Taekwondo. Stick to that.

    Glad2bhere, if you would like to start a topic on your questions on opening a school in the UK, I recommend starting a thread in one of the general forum, or PMing the poster in question.
  8. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/24/2007 4:11pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    And...as for DerAuslander's response to the original question...

    Taekwondo is kicking and punching. If you'd like a more static and entropic definition, you're welcome to it.
  9. DerAuslander is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/24/2007 5:11pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: BJJ/C-JKD/KAAALIII!!!!!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by emboesso
    ****. I scaled this Himalayan mountaintop to ask this one question... and THAT's the answer I get?

    I feel so gypped.
    Ironically enough, the lesson the other night at the temple was that a teacher should not provide answers to his students, but rather seek to clear away the student's confusion so that the student can come to his or her own answers.

    Let's consider it this way.

    TKD has from its inception been in a constant state of flux and disparity. If we define TKD as purely being karate based, we ignore the developments of Olympic TKD (which, while often decried by many, including myself, is the most "alive" TKD).

    To say TKD is definitely this, is to ignore that it is also that. To say "this is a TKD style kick" is to ossify the art and essentially say that this must be this way.

    At the first Throwdown I attended, people thought I was an out-of-practice Muay Thai fighter.
  10. glad2bhere is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/24/2007 6:36pm


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DerAuslander108
    And...as for DerAuslander's response to the original question...

    Taekwondo is kicking and punching. If you'd like a more static and entropic definition, you're welcome to it.
    You won't get an argument from me about the punching and kicking aspect. However I am still waiting for someone to substantiate that TKD was ever intended as anything other than a Korean Physical Education venue. So far the actual existence of what we call TKD today goes back to the Occupation, though there are methods that the Koreans had before that. Further I don't hear from anyone such as CHOI Hong Hi that he ever saw it as much more than a way of conditioning and building confidence in military personnel. My sense is that if people want to use it as a form of combat, it can probably be modified in much the same way as Funakoshi's SHOTOKAN had to be re-engineered into a fighting form and away from competition (See: Oshima). Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
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