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  1. ironlurker is offline
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    How do Chameleon Circuit?

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    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 4:53pm


     Style: jkd

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Mantis
    I've trained in many reputed old Shaolin methods and never did me no harm. And Iron vest is "internal" So I get no gleam from what your intrawebs tell you.
    Sorry, I apologize for not being clear. I myself am not making any claims for Golden Bell, Taco Bell, or anything, I certainly find this hard to believe as well. I am quoting a 1934 book by this gentleman:

    from Amazon:
    JIn Jing Zhong (alias En Zhong) was born in 1904, had an unofficial name of Zhe Chen and a nickname of Fendian Ke ("Mad"). Engaged in traditional styles Kung Fu from his childhood. Learnt the style Tan Tui ("Kicking Legs") from master Zhu Guan Peng, the Shaolin style Liu He ("Six Harmonies") from master Yiang De Shan, the style Xing Gong Quan ("The Fist of Subconscious Mastership") from master Yin De Kui, then was a disciple of Miao Xing, the Head of the Shaolin Monastery, who taught him the style Luohan Quan ("Arhat's Fist"), 72 Shaolin Arts and ancient Shaolin Treatises on Pugilistic Arts. Later trained military police. In 1933 founded "Society for Studies of Fighting Techniques" and was the head of "Weekly Magazine of National Arts".
    His book on the "72 Arts of Shaolin" has appeared in several editions since the first printing of 1934 in Tanjin.

    Fiction and poetry about ancient heroes often mentioned they had mastered "Palm of Iron Shot" (tie sha zhang) and so-and-so mastered "Covering oneself with the Golden Bell" (Jin Zhong Zhao) (p. 25)
    If you practise [sic] this method for two or three years, your breast and your back will become hard like stone or iron; it is of no importance whether the enemy puinches or kicks, it will do no harm. Even a sword blow will not do any injury to a man who practises [sic] (p. 102)
    [on page 145, discussing Arm of Sunrays (Yang Guang Shou)] This is just, as they say, "to hit the cow over the mountain" [he's talking about NTKO's], it is often mentioned in novels about knights (p. 146)
    In this same book he describes how his fingers became permanently deformed through "The Force of Eagle's Claw's" (Ying Zhao Li), which is essentially the Nigiri Game, and he damaged his eyesight through another exercise.

    Obviously, I'm no authority; I feel the significance of this particular book is that it is a 1934 reference to Golden Bell from China itself. This is just one example, and it would be interesting to see if there were any earlier written references, but it doesn't look good to me that he makes claims for deflecting sword blows, and -as you can see from the quotes above- takes Wuxia novels as history.

    Can we find an early, credible source for such skills as Golden Bell, outside of oral history and tradition? Because if we can't, the fact that a native source as far back as 1934 seems to be so credulous (gullible) doesn't seem to bode well for their existence as real, practical , historical methods.
  2. Mr. Mantis is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 5:10pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Tung Sheng Ch'ang said he never found anyone that had it when he was roaming China in the 30's - 40's. He probably had more exposure to the CMAs than anyone alive today.

    I think "Golden Bell" is the figment of these fantasy books, and doesn't correspond to any particular exercise..
    “We are surrounded by warships and don’t have time to talk. Please pray for us.” — One Somali Pirate.
  3. new2bjj is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/22/2007 11:30am


     Style: TKD, MT, KEMPO

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by dwhomp
    He also had huge medical problems and was flown to places around the world for treatment for ailments that whose causes were unknown. The only reason i know this was a blurb in the paper about the Cleveland Clinic decades ago.

    Some say it could be because of his training methods.

    I am not offering opinions, just a blurb i remember.
    I saw Master Pan perform at a tournament in SF about ten or so rears ago- he did not look spry at all, more lie arthritic. He did his routine with a decent looking, much younger white women at the WuShu nationals in San Francisco. Maybe he was banging her.
  4. glad2bhere is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/23/2007 11:37am


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by new2bjj
    I saw Master Pan perform at a tournament in SF about ten or so rears ago- he did not look spry at all, more lie arthritic. He did his routine with a decent looking, much younger white women at the WuShu nationals in San Francisco.
    This is an area that does not get examined very much. I know there are probably thousands of folks who have tried conditioning themselves against possible damage from either attack or from executing a technique. There does not seem to be a lot of documentation about how these folks turn-out later in life.

    I do seem to remember an author (Robert Smith, maybe?) who was keen to report that a few of the teachers he met were capable of sustaining considerable assault from kicks and punches and attributed this to "internal" versus"external" development. I should also mention that pictures of these teachers always seemed to show someone of considerable "portliness" as it were. Its been my experience that a good many larger people are capable of accepting some pretty good technique simply by dint of their mass and the well-known properties of decelleration, yes?

    For myself, I can report that I generally take a pretty good swat now and again but I don't attribute that to any special conditioning. Many years back I studied Kyokushinkai for a short time and walked away with reasonable skill at taking punishment from my training partner, especially in the legs and torso. My thought is that it had a lot more to do with how I thought or felt about getting tagged than actually getting hit.

    BTW: Interesting historical note: Research into the diet of gladiators studied in the burial areas outside of theatres in Turkey suggest that many of these fighters were actually a bit on the "pudgy" side. Apparently the presence of a healthy layer of fat under the skin acted as a kind of shield for vulnerable structures against the more superficial slashes and cuts. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
  5. Mr. Mantis is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/23/2007 11:40am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So golden bell is fat? Okay, I'll accept that.
    “We are surrounded by warships and don’t have time to talk. Please pray for us.” — One Somali Pirate.
  6. glad2bhere is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/23/2007 12:31pm


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Mantis
    So golden bell is fat? Okay, I'll accept that.
    Honestly, I would say its more of manipulating how a person feels about getting hit--- say by a weapon, bullet, fist, foot or whatever. As I see it if a person gets tagged and has developed the ability to discount the effects of the experience this has a lot more to do with "Golden Bell" than anything physical. The histories of battle are rife with cases where people sustained terrible injuries and went on to do heroic things. In fact, how many times have people here been sparring only to find AFTER the event that they were cut, bruised or had ripped a nail. Now, true enough, people can say they were caught-up in the moment, but what if a person had actually developed the ability shrug-off injury and keep going? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
  7. EmetShamash is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/23/2007 12:50pm


     Style: Chinese Martial Arts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The Celtic Warriors would paint themselves in woad and run into battle saying they were invincible because of it. Running themselves through with spears they would still attack the spear bearer.

    These crazy naked blue men are the reason that spears started having plates to catch these people.

    http://www.frivolity.com/teatime/Son.../woad_ode.html
  8. glad2bhere is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/23/2007 3:34pm


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by EmetShamash
    The Celtic Warriors would paint themselves in woad and run into battle saying they were invincible because of it. Running themselves through with spears they would still attack the spear bearer.

    These crazy naked blue men are the reason that spears started having plates to catch these people.

    http://www.frivolity.com/teatime/Son.../woad_ode.html

    Unless I'm mistaken I think this is also one of the reasons the Colt .45 automatic was adopted in the Phillipines. Apparently the 30 cal weapons just didn't have the stopping power against the Moro tribesmen. FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
  9. ironlurker is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/23/2007 4:10pm


     Style: jkd

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    Honestly, I would say its more of manipulating how a person feels about getting hit--- say by a weapon, bullet, fist, foot or whatever. As I see it if a person gets tagged and has developed the ability to discount the effects of the experience this has a lot more to do with "Golden Bell" than anything physical.
    I've heard that as well, and it seems very likely. I can't remember the author's name but I remember reading an essay by a karateka where he said alot of body conditioning is about being able to go from "OMFG you hit me, pain, pain" to a point where you still feel the pain from a blow, yet it has more of an invigorating effect as opposed to producing shock/horror.

    The only physical/medical explanation I've heard of for similar conditioning is the conditioning of the fascia. For example:

    Training appears to cause the loose connective tissue and fascia underlying the skin to change in such a way that they can withstand knocks and blows better. Besides the sub-cutaneous fascia there is a compartmental fascia, that is, a covering around bundles of muscle fibers, individual muscles, and around groups of muscles. Hence, fascia is very tough and weight for weight is comparable to steel in tensile strength. It seems that with repeated slight trauma the fascia thickens slightly so as to provide an even stronger cover. This covering of sub-cutaneous fascia cushions blows and can be thought of as a tough extra skin underlying the outer skin. Cushioning from the fascia is achieved by account of it being totally inelastic and when it is stressed against contracted muscles it spreads the impact over the surface of the muscle allowing no penetration into the muscle body.
    http://www.uechi-ryu.com/oldsite/chaplin.htm

    On the surface this seems feasible, but I have yet to hear or read anything from an actual medical or scientific authority that corroborates this. So, as far as I know the fascia conditioning may be only a theory, and psychological factors are mainly the ones in play.
  10. EmetShamash is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/24/2007 1:24am


     Style: Chinese Martial Arts

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    yeah... I don't know, there is only so far that those little layers of fascia can go. I mean, the body has more mystery than we give it credit for sure, but stronger than steel?

    Don't get me wrong, I do a little of this kind of conditioning stuff but I have no illusions of it being able to make me super human.
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