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  1. kensei is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/10/2007 6:30pm


     Style: shotokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    [quote=WorldWarCheese]So it's a story Kase told your instructor, not yourself (thus not from a first-hand but rather second hand account, just pointing out a discrepency in your argument).

    Correct, which is WHAT I SAID....I read it in a magazine and also an instructor told me this. not my instructor, sorry....a JKA instructor that I met while training at a camp. He apparently had first hand knowledge of the story as told by Kase. and it was not in a ill manored way.

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWarCheese
    I have that Oyama trained in Shotokan under Funakoshi for at least two years (wikipedia) and both masoyama.com and fightingmaster.com (which isn't Kyokushin-based site) have him earning at the minimum the rank of Nidan in Shotokan Karate. Shodan/Nidan in two years may seem pretty short but compare that to people like Bas Rutten who pretty much did the same thing then, meh you get my point. .
    LOL, of course you do. Wikipedia is writen by the general public and not always accurate. He did not study with Funakoshi, by the time Oyama came into the picture Funakoshi would not have been teaching him. LMAO, that is a good one. Shows me how "accurate" wiki is these days. and it does not shock me that masoyama.com or what ever says that he trained with Funakoshi, they probably wrote the wiki post. LMAO...that is a good one... they cant even get a time line right!!! Ha Ha Ha. Sorry, take a look at some time lines and find out how old Funakoshi was when "oyama trained with him" more like he saw him twice during a training session over the two years he trained.


    I
    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWarCheese
    f you can find your magazine article and somehow either quote it or put it on here by pictorals then I will have a much better time thinking you're not just being pulled around by a guy who had something against Oyama. .
    I dont remember saying they had something against Mas oyama.. Hell the instructor was just finished saying how good his fighters were and how tough he actually was.

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWarCheese
    On a tangent: I Googled Taji Kase and got a few photoes and a thread in a forum about a Europoean Karate Master Mourning his recent death or something like that, no bios.
    Look a bit deaper if you want, but like I said, I passed on a story and that is all. Have a great won man...I am done with this being accused of telling a story that was not true, I already told you that I was passing on a story that may not have legs, if you have a personal beef with it, its yours. Have a good one man.
  2. WorldWarCheese is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/10/2007 11:08pm


     Style: Muay Thai n00b

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Correct, which is WHAT I SAID....I read it in a magazine and also an instructor told me this. not my instructor, sorry....a JKA instructor that I met while training at a camp. He apparently had first hand knowledge of the story as told by Kase. and it was not in a ill manored way.
    Sorry, misread.

    LOL, of course you do. Wikipedia is writen by the general public and not always accurate. He did not study with Funakoshi, by the time Oyama came into the picture Funakoshi would not have been teaching him. LMAO, that is a good one. Shows me how "accurate" wiki is these days. and it does not shock me that masoyama.com or what ever says that he trained with Funakoshi, they probably wrote the wiki post.
    Explain the third one. It's not run by any branch of Kyokushin or any offshoots or really has anything to do with them aside from decided he was important enough to put a bio on their page. And I happen to like wiki. ::sniff sniff::

    LMAO...that is a good one... they cant even get a time line right!!! Ha Ha Ha. Sorry, take a look at some time lines and find out how old Funakoshi was when "oyama trained with him" more like he saw him twice during a training session over the two years he trained.
    I have Funakoshi created the JKA at 1955 (Age 80 something or other) and was still teaching as head instructor of a dojo of their or something. (Something of note and don't bother refuting this I don't care: Apparently after its creation he didn't like the way they started doing things) Oyama began karate about a decade earlier. So, Gichin was still kickin' (get it? Kickin'? Har har har I'l be here all night folks...:hello: )

    I dont remember saying they had something against Mas oyama..
    You didn't, I did.

    Hell the instructor was just finished saying how good his fighters were and how tough he actually was.
    Oh yeah, after including how he tried to cheat in randori.

    Look a bit deaper if you want, but like I said, I passed on a story and that is all. Have a great won man...I am done with this being accused of telling a story that was not true, I already told you that I was passing on a story that may not have legs,
    Then stop defending it.

    if you have a personal beef with it, its yours. Have a good one man.
    It's not personal, it's objective.

    Huggles and Kisses.:love7:
  3. kensei is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/12/2007 8:58am


     Style: shotokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWarCheese
    Explain the third one. It's not run by any branch of Kyokushin or any offshoots or really has anything to do with them aside from decided he was important enough to put a bio on their page. And I happen to like wiki. ::sniff sniff::


    I like Wiki to, but it is far from a unbiased encyclopedia. :profe: It is written by people with personal interests involved any one can go on and publish what they want. As great as it is, it is flawed. That was my point, and that was it.
    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWarCheese
    I have Funakoshi created the JKA at 1955 (Age 80 something or other) and was still teaching as head instructor of a dojo of their or something. (Something of note and don't bother refuting this I don't care: Apparently after its creation he didn't like the way they started doing things) Oyama began karate about a decade earlier. So, Gichin was still kickin' (get it? Kickin'? Har har har I'l be here all night folks... )


    Wrong and right. :eusa_naug By the time the JKA was formed Funakoshi had stopped “teaching” and was simply a figure head for the TWO groups. He had turned over the dojos to the seniors at each respective club (university clubs and the head quarters) some time before that. I dont think you are looking for a history lesson here and simply stating the overview that you read on line. Pick up some books by Harry Cook if you want a good history of shotokan in its complete. It is hightly unlikely that Mas Oyama was doing Karate and Funakoshi was standing around correcting him….He may have been in the same building at times, but he was not Mas Oyamas instructor. It was more than likely Nishyama or Nakayama or another senior that was "teaching" at the time.
    Now you asserted that the instructors had something against Oyama, I am sure they did not. But if you want to start rumors that the JKA instructors have something against Oyama that is your business to defend man.


    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWarCheese
    Oh yeah, after including how he tried to cheat in randori.


    I think Cheat was to harsh a word. He was trying to use an illegal move, they never said which and probably did not know I had a shodan in Judo and probably would have understood. They also had high praise for his Karate and the off shoots. They all watch the Sabaki and love it.
    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWarCheese
    Then stop defending it.

    I am not defending the story, I am defending myself. You seem to think I made this up or something and are acusing me of such or them of such. I personally think it is spot on and it fits into everything else I have read about the “tongo brothers” “killing bulls” and his other marketing ideas that brought Kyokushin to the forefront. Oh, and I have nothing against this kind of stuff. I think that if the JKA had learned a thing or two about marketing from Oyama and other Marketing based martial arts they would have been huge. As it is right now they are not all that big….but they have quality instead of quantity at this point.
    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWarCheese
    It's not personal, it's objective.

    Its not objective, its argumentative! After hearing that I was passing on a “story” not something I personally witnessed ext, you continue to go after it and argue. I continue to tell you that you are barking up the wrong tree and you continue to be argumentative. Fine, shows me your adjenda is set and that is your problem not mine. Take the story or leave the story, but don’t attack the messenger…this is not Greece you know!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWarCheese
    Huggles and Kisses.


    Have a good one!
  4. WorldWarCheese is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/12/2007 4:20pm


     Style: Muay Thai n00b

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kensei
    I like Wiki to, but it is far from a unbiased encyclopedia. :profe: It is written by people with personal interests involved any one can go on and publish what they want. As great as it is, it is flawed. That was my point, and that was it.
    Granted.

    Wrong and right. :eusa_naug By the time the JKA was formed Funakoshi had stopped “teaching” and was simply a figure head for the TWO groups. He had turned over the dojos to the seniors at each respective club (university clubs and the head quarters) some time before that. I dont think you are looking for a history lesson here and simply stating the overview that you read on line. Pick up some books by Harry Cook if you want a good history of shotokan in its complete. It is hightly unlikely that Mas Oyama was doing Karate and Funakoshi was standing around correcting him….He may have been in the same building at times, but he was not Mas Oyamas instructor. It was more than likely Nishyama or Nakayama or another senior that was "teaching" at the time.
    If he's training in that manner, I can see how it could be contrued to be Funakoshi's student. Either way, the quality of his Shotokan teaching, if it was overseen, even if slightly by the creator must have been top notch. Don't know those Japanese Sensei's names but they must've been good.

    Now you asserted that the instructors had something against Oyama, I am sure they did not. But if you want to start rumors that the JKA instructors have something against Oyama that is your business to defend man.
    Not really, just that individual man seemed. But if the following Judo story is this version and not the "Cheat" version I probably just read into it a little too deep. Forgiveness, it's a habit.

    I think Cheat was to harsh a word. He was trying to use an illegal move, they never said which and probably did not know I had a shodan in Judo and probably would have understood. They also had high praise for his Karate and the off shoots. They all watch the Sabaki and love it.
    Honestly, the only thing I know of Oyama's Judo past (since most Karateka don't care a whit about his Judo past) is that he trained for (at least a time) with Kimura who's training regimen is legendary and will quickly advance a junior student out of sheer repetition.

    I am not defending the story, I am defending myself. You seem to think I made this up or something and are acusing me of such or them of such.
    I was trying to say that you might have been mislead. I believe you in that you were told this by a senior to you but I wonder if the senior was being truthful, 's all. I was fed **** for YEARS by my senior, unabashidly. Thus, don't be too offended I question yours.

    I personally think it is spot on and it fits into everything else I have read about the “tongo brothers” “killing bulls” and his other marketing ideas that brought Kyokushin to the forefront. Oh, and I have nothing against this kind of stuff. I think that if the JKA had learned a thing or two about marketing from Oyama and other Marketing based martial arts they would have been huge. As it is right now they are not all that big….but they have quality instead of quantity at this point.
    I think a lot of stories are made up or exageratted by his students out of just hero-worship. (On a Kyokushin forum I got GRILLED for making a little Oyama joke that seemed to suit the mood but whatever) However, out of a lot of the claims I counted the 300 Man Kumite Thread worthy because others have done something like it. As posted here, supposedly Kimura did a 200 Randori. And an achievement like that needs no embellishment. Thus, back to the Marketing Bid: I don't think THIS PARTICULAR act was a marketing lie, simply because of the 100 man tradition in the art and other arts claiming similar events.

    Killing bulls in NOT a Kyokushin Tradition.

    Its not objective, its argumentative! After hearing that I was passing on a “story” not something I personally witnessed ext, you continue to go after it and argue. I continue to tell you that you are barking up the wrong tree and you continue to be argumentative. Fine, shows me your adjenda is set and that is your problem not mine. Take the story or leave the story, but don’t attack the messenger…this is not Greece you know!!!
    Arrrr <-- Pirate arrrrr.
    Objective in the sense that I have nothing against you and if I felt there was enough evidence behind the statement/story/whatever I wouldn't have any problem with it. I'm argumentative by nature, so whatever comments about my "agenda's" or whatever won't phase me in any way.
  5. kensei is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/12/2007 5:07pm


     Style: shotokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have no doubt in my mind that the 300 man sparring is real, granted it sounds lofty but a whole day of sparring is possible, especially if it is point sparring and not the bang up stuff that I have seen.
    I was more questioning the other "stories" that you hear about him and his organization. and possibly the image that 300 man sparring brings about. Now Having done Judo for a while I can say that if he was training with Kimura he was in shape. i have read some good stories about that man that I just can not think would be made up. My instructor in Judo did train with Kimura for a breif while, very breif from what I was told by him, and he said that if it was not for the lack of S on Kimuras chest he would have sworn he was superman!

    Kensei
  6. Feryk is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/12/2007 5:26pm

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     Style: Wado Kai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Let the Lineage Wars begin!

    Damn sorry I missed the weekend on this.

    Fact is, NONE of us know first hand about Kase's account vs. Oyama's legend. Is he a brown in Shotokan or not? Who cares?

    We do know that Oyama was a serious bad ass. I think that remains undisputed by all parties and the people who trained with him will tell you he was tough as nails. The bull video (I've seen it), looks real enough to me. Was the bull half dead? I don't know and neither do you. Even a half dead bull is not something I'm planning on messing with anytime soon.

    The 300 man kumite is possible, and it doesn't have to be tappy tap point sparring to be done. Remember the whole 'one punch-one kill' idea? Well, Ippon Kumite works just like that. If Oyama decided to fight a hundred guys, and he was only looking for one really good shot on each, then it's entirely possible. One full contact shot to the head, or selected parts of the chest would be all that he was looking for.

    Having been hit full contact in the face, I can tell you that once is enough to end the fight, if it's done right. By all accounts, Oyama hit like a freight train.

    I've had a 22 year old Nidan mow through about 10 of us in two minutes this way. I didn't give him anything, but he smoked me in the chest hard enough to knock the wind out of me. As soon as I went down, a brown belt went in, and was knocked flying with a yoko-geri. After him went a Shodan, who got punched in the mouth. He was just that damn good. It took less than a minute.
    Quote Originally Posted by pauli
    i was once told that "do" means wrecking people's **** for your own philosophical betterment.

    Quote Originally Posted by melvin_peebles
    I could be mistaking dumbness for delusion. I'll have to go dig out my DSM IV. It's great to have stumbled upon this site. The rich fauna and flora of mental dysfunction that exists in the martial arts is amazing. It's like the Galapagos.
  7. WorldWarCheese is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/12/2007 8:35pm


     Style: Muay Thai n00b

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Feryk
    Let the Lineage Wars begin!

    Damn sorry I missed the weekend on this.

    Fact is, NONE of us know first hand about Kase's account vs. Oyama's legend. Is he a brown in Shotokan or not? Who cares?

    We do know that Oyama was a serious bad ass. I think that remains undisputed by all parties and the people who trained with him will tell you he was tough as nails. The bull video (I've seen it), looks real enough to me. Was the bull half dead? I don't know and neither do you. Even a half dead bull is not something I'm planning on messing with anytime soon.

    The 300 man kumite is possible, and it doesn't have to be tappy tap point sparring to be done. Remember the whole 'one punch-one kill' idea? Well, Ippon Kumite works just like that. If Oyama decided to fight a hundred guys, and he was only looking for one really good shot on each, then it's entirely possible. One full contact shot to the head, or selected parts of the chest would be all that he was looking for.

    Having been hit full contact in the face, I can tell you that once is enough to end the fight, if it's done right. By all accounts, Oyama hit like a freight train.

    I've had a 22 year old Nidan mow through about 10 of us in two minutes this way. I didn't give him anything, but he smoked me in the chest hard enough to knock the wind out of me. As soon as I went down, a brown belt went in, and was knocked flying with a yoko-geri. After him went a Shodan, who got punched in the mouth. He was just that damn good. It took less than a minute.
    Thanks. I need to work on my arguing skillage or something.:laughing1

    And wowee, wait punches to the face in KK??? Sign me up!

    Is the bull video online? And also, you reminded me of a quote by Kancho Matsui "It's quicker if you just knock them out" And besides to Kensei, he did it over two days not one.
  8. kensei is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/13/2007 8:54am


     Style: shotokan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWarCheese

    Is the bull video online? And also, you reminded me of a quote by Kancho Matsui "It's quicker if you just knock them out" And besides to Kensei, he did it over two days not one.
    LAST TIME.....I AM NOT DISPUTING THE 300 MAN SPARRING, I think it is your reading skills that got hijacked man! For GODS SAKE RE READ what I said! I said his original rank was what I was talking about not the 300 man sparring.

    I have no doubt that 300 man sparring is not just possible, but done by him...Enough is enough man, go back and read a bit. I was wondering about Rank and a few of his marketing events, not his sparring! Get it?????
  9. WorldWarCheese is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/13/2007 9:08am


     Style: Muay Thai n00b

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    o.o And here I thought the whole time you were saying that the 300 Man Kumite was more likely to be a marketing stunt done with tappy sparring than an actualy feat of skill, strength, and endurance. Ah well.

    And after reading your latest post (opposed to this one) you stated your intentions a little more clearly. However, I never deigned to reply to that because I honestly didn't have anything to argue with (Aside from that the event was of multiple days and was not tippy tappy). But the majority of my posts were under the assumption you didn't think the 300 deelee took place because of this and that, etc.

    So you agree that it's more likely than not that he did 300 and non-point sparring? (Granted they were only 2 min matches but...) I just realized, Xerxes didn't need 1 million man to win at Thermopalaye, he just needed Oyama. (Or a Matsui, Filho, and Hajime...)
  10. Feryk is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/13/2007 3:18pm

    supporting member
     Style: Wado Kai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWarCheese
    o.o And here I thought the whole time you were saying that the 300 Man Kumite was more likely to be a marketing stunt done with tappy sparring than an actualy feat of skill, strength, and endurance. Ah well.
    It was probably both. Oyama knew his new style would need credibility. That is why he did many of the things he was credited with. And his organization grew exponentially because of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by kensei
    I have no doubt that 300 man sparring is not just possible, but done by him...Enough is enough man, go back and read a bit. I was wondering about Rank and a few of his marketing events, not his sparring! Get it?????
    See, I thought you were only relating a third hand story. Shotokan peers of Oyama were understandably upset with him for his break, and then to actually be SUCCESSFUL implementing a hard, contact ethic to their style, well, that was a slap in the face. It makes sense that they would not be fond of him, even several years later. If you are actually curious about his recognized rank, you could ask the JKA. They have records that date back that far.
    Quote Originally Posted by pauli
    i was once told that "do" means wrecking people's **** for your own philosophical betterment.

    Quote Originally Posted by melvin_peebles
    I could be mistaking dumbness for delusion. I'll have to go dig out my DSM IV. It's great to have stumbled upon this site. The rich fauna and flora of mental dysfunction that exists in the martial arts is amazing. It's like the Galapagos.
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