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  1. kensei is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/08/2007 3:03pm


     Style: shotokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWarCheese
    Umm... JKA is a Shotokan organization I assume? I'm sorry but it sounds like just some Sensei badmouthing the creator of a different art. Unless I get something more substantial that "Oh, this Big Mucky Muck from Some Shotokan Group" I do not feel inclined to believe it. And this isn't your KK Fanboyism either (I'm Judo first and foremost and Love Kimura with a very un-gay manlove)

    Your story seems shaky. Very shaky. You have one story from one guy who fought a "Korean Guy" etc, etc.
    well that is your stance, I am passing on what I heard from a senior. I also have to say that Kase, Known as the JKA enforcer because of his fighting abilities and a few stories I have read about him, Also said that Oyama was a great teacher and had lots of passion for the martial arts. Pretty high praise from Kase.
    My story is shaky? Okay, It is not my story and Kase was not "bashing" Oyama, he was just saying that Oyama was not a BB in the Shotokan style he says he was. Oyama openly said that he was Shotokan at a time when their was only two groups that were Shotokan, The JKA and the Shotokai, and Kase was actaully part of BOTH.

    Anyways, Take it or leave it man, No skin of my nose. Just passing on the info I have been told first hand...so that is second hand info....and sans marketing crapola!
  2. WorldWarCheese is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/08/2007 7:40pm


     Style: Muay Thai n00b

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by kensei
    well that is your stance, I am passing on what I heard from a senior. I also have to say that Kase, Known as the JKA enforcer because of his fighting abilities and a few stories I have read about him, Also said that Oyama was a great teacher and had lots of passion for the martial arts. Pretty high praise from Kase.
    My story is shaky? Okay, It is not my story and Kase was not "bashing" Oyama, he was just saying that Oyama was not a BB in the Shotokan style he says he was. Oyama openly said that he was Shotokan at a time when their was only two groups that were Shotokan, The JKA and the Shotokai, and Kase was actaully part of BOTH.

    Anyways, Take it or leave it man, No skin of my nose. Just passing on the info I have been told first hand...so that is second hand info....and sans marketing crapola!
    Honestly, I don't care if Oyama was the reborn Jesus or not (Which he wasn't. Kimura killed the Second Coming for spilling water-wine on his dogi) but you have just a story to back up your claims that Oyama was t3h m4rk3ting 3vil. And it's also from a guy I've never heard of. Some other Shotokan guys here wanna tell me more? Or do I have to wikipedia it?

    So it remains I think he DID do the 300, if only he was fighting less than 300 people at a time so it turned out to be more like fighing 60 people 5 times (or something like that)
  3. kensei is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/09/2007 11:28am


     Style: shotokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thats fine. I am not saying that Oyama was evil, I am saying that perhaps the truth was stretched a bit and offered a story as to why I think that.
    If you dont know who Kase was, then Google him.
  4. WorldWarCheese is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/09/2007 4:09pm


     Style: Muay Thai n00b

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well, you DID offer a story. With no way of backing that story up. Kyokushin is known for the 100 Man Kumite, I don't see why the founder wouldn't have done more than that, especially with multiple sources implying he did. And what's te "Enforcer's" first name?
  5. kensei is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/09/2007 4:45pm


     Style: shotokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWarCheese
    Well, you DID offer a story. With no way of backing that story up. Kyokushin is known for the 100 Man Kumite, I don't see why the founder wouldn't have done more than that, especially with multiple sources implying he did. And what's te "Enforcer's" first name?
    Okay, someone needs to learn how to read! Fist off I never said he did not do the 300 or 600 or 10000 man sparring....I said some of his stories were questionable! Now, the "story" I offered, I already said it was threw a senior and I had Little proof other than the word of my senior and the fact that the "enforcer", Kase sensei had repeated it in a interview he did. Now the interview is in a fighting arts magainzine and his name is Taji Kase. Now, if you choose to not believe the story I read and was told...fine, I offered it up for what it was worth.

    Again, believe what you want. The source is a well known Shotokan senior. the fact that you have not read about Taji Kase does not mean he is not well known, it shows your lack of knowledge of Shotokan. Which is not a poke at you, just a fact. Google him...Like I said, put in Kase Sensei and he will pop up...but in Taji Kase and you may get more. Good hunting.

    Kensei
  6. WorldWarCheese is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/09/2007 6:23pm


     Style: Muay Thai n00b

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Ah! So this is featured as an article in a magazine? If you could find the article you read it in that would be a lot more substantial. You see, a lot of people get told stories by their sensei's and other people. Just because it came from your sensei, doesn't make it true and he has one account versus dozens of other accounts out there from other high ranking senseis in other arts, thus my suspition. (If you really want me to list all the Karate sensei's who wrote and talked about the 300 Man Kumite then you haven't been to many karate websites/forums) Being published by a magazine company that could be sued for slander means they probably did more research into the topic before it was made, so again: find the article, I'd take your word a lot more seriously.

    And I wasn't using my own lack of knowledge about Kase as a rebuttle, I'm just saying he was one man against many and is apparently a high ranking Judoka/Karateka himself and I would like to know more about him. (As well as the randori session in which Oyama tried to cheat)
  7. kensei is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/09/2007 6:58pm


     Style: shotokan

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWarCheese
    Ah! So this is featured as an article in a magazine? If you could find the article you read it in that would be a lot more substantial. You see, a lot of people get told stories by their sensei's and other people. Just because it came from your sensei, doesn't make it true and he has one account versus dozens of other accounts out there from other high ranking senseis in other arts, thus my suspition. (If you really want me to list all the Karate sensei's who wrote and talked about the 300 Man Kumite then you haven't been to many karate websites/forums) Being published by a magazine company that could be sued for slander means they probably did more research into the topic before it was made, so again: find the article, I'd take your word a lot more seriously.

    And I wasn't using my own lack of knowledge about Kase as a rebuttle, I'm just saying he was one man against many and is apparently a high ranking Judoka/Karateka himself and I would like to know more about him. (As well as the randori session in which Oyama tried to cheat)
    Okay, one last time....One, I never said that the 100 man kumite was not real, I never said that Kase said it was not real.

    Now, what I did say was that Oyamas claims to be a black belt in Karate and Judo were NOT TRUE, well not the Shotokan and Judo part. Apparently he trained in Goju and I do not know how he did in that. What do I base my assertions that he did not have his black belt in Shotokan and judo...the story Kase told my senior, a magazine and one I read about and was told. Now Kase told the people at Black belt and Dragon times, whichis now fighting arts this story and it was republished multiple times. I have also said I presented this story as a reason that I do not think all of his "stories" are based on reality. he was a marketing giant and knew what to say and do to promote himself and his art.

    Now all that being said, the style that he came up with is great. I have trained with Kyokushin guys and they are tough SOBs. I prefer Shotokan simply because it is more linear in its thinking and does not mix ideas from other styles in...IE shotokan, shito ryu and goju = kyokushin karate.

    Now, I said MULTIPLE times that you can take the story for what it is and go from thier. it was not meant to say Kyokushin is crap or that Oyama was a Bullshit artist. I also went as far as saying he was not fodder for BUllshido...and if I did not clearly illustrate that...let me now. Dispite dubious stories...Oyamas style is legit and the practice of it is legit. Their now if you want to got dragon times and Black belt and do a bit of home work, if not take it for what it is worth...basically I dont care anymore. I was simply passing a story along....one I said was published and is apparently true. Now Kase passed away, so I doubt that the Kyokushin has any issues with him. and seeing as Oyama passed away before him....I dont think we will get any new answers about this.

    I am done:wbaba2
  8. WorldWarCheese is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/09/2007 10:04pm


     Style: Muay Thai n00b

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't care what you think of Oyamas art. I don't think I implied you were badmouthing Kyokushin at all. Honestly, Kyokushin could be the shittiest martial art in the world and have no relevence to the topic.

    So it's a story Kase told your instructor, not yourself (thus not from a first-hand but rather second hand account, just pointing out a discrepency in your argument).
    I have that Oyama trained in Shotokan under Funakoshi for at least two years (wikipedia) and both masoyama.com and fightingmaster.com (which isn't Kyokushin-based site) have him earning at the minimum the rank of Nidan in Shotokan Karate. Shodan/Nidan in two years may seem pretty short but compare that to people like Bas Rutten who pretty much did the same thing then, meh you get my point. All those sites also include his 300 man Kumite. (Well, fightingmaster.com has him at 270 but they also said that all were different people and some from other styles) and I would find it odd that people in a style that does not know point sparring would accept a man who point sparred 300 people and claimed he is amazing for it.

    If you can find your magazine article and somehow either quote it or put it on here by pictorals then I will have a much better time thinking you're not just being pulled around by a guy who had something against Oyama.

    On a tangent: I Googled Taji Kase and got a few photoes and a thread in a forum about a Europoean Karate Master Mourning his recent death or something like that, no bios.
  9. glad2bhere is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/10/2007 9:48am


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Having studied KYOKUSHIN Karate for a short time I was left with two very strong feelings about the art. One is that I had a profound respect for the late Mas Oyama's effort to bring a sound focus for contact back to Japanese Karate. The other was that I discovered that certain kinds of training have a built-in limitation. I had originally suspected this when I heard that MUAY THAI practitioners only had about a 4 year window for effective competition before the training and competition caught up with them. Later when I heard that KYOKUSHIN and GO-JU RYU people were having health isues as a result of improper use of they IBUKI and NOGARE breathing techniques I began to suspect that there was more to this. Since then I have kept an eye open for those situations where conditioning and strength training figure heavily into an art and have sought to be focused but moderate in my own training regimine. Has anyone else bumped into this view? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
  10. WorldWarCheese is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/10/2007 11:46am


     Style: Muay Thai n00b

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    Having studied KYOKUSHIN Karate for a short time I was left with two very strong feelings about the art. One is that I had a profound respect for the late Mas Oyama's effort to bring a sound focus for contact back to Japanese Karate. The other was that I discovered that certain kinds of training have a built-in limitation. I had originally suspected this when I heard that MUAY THAI practitioners only had about a 4 year window for effective competition before the training and competition caught up with them. Later when I heard that KYOKUSHIN and GO-JU RYU people were having health isues as a result of improper use of they IBUKI and NOGARE breathing techniques I began to suspect that there was more to this. Since then I have kept an eye open for those situations where conditioning and strength training figure heavily into an art and have sought to be focused but moderate in my own training regimine. Has anyone else bumped into this view? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Hi Bruce, and I bet you actually trained in KK for longer than I have at the moment (that'll soon change.. well, soon enough for that time to elapse in which I've taken KK for as long as you)

    And while this probably deserves its own thread, this one is dead so wtf not?

    I feel any full contact striking art like MT, KK, Boxing, etc will have shorten life spans for the upper level competitors (Though in both KK and Boxing the "Prime Age" at the moment is said to be between 25-35) not because of strength training, but because your body is getting hit by something hard, being used by someone trained to hit your body hard. This in no way can be overall good for it.

    Thus, people drop out in Boxing and Muay Thai because of head traumas and in MT and KK injuries to the legs would especially be a problem, even after strengthening of the shins.

    I hope I read your post right, if not correct me and I'll move on from there.
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