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  1. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/06/2007 8:47am

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sorry to derail, but I can't keep quiet in front of such dumbfuckery:

    Quote Originally Posted by spartan6
    The heavy Gi jackets in Judo act much like armor. If you ever get the chance to practice against armor you will find that the gaps in the armor are perfect hand holds and will be in much the same place as you would use in Judo.
    NO, IT DOES NOT!

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    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  2. FictionPimp is offline

    Sexiest Punching Bag Alive

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    Posted On:
    6/06/2007 10:00am


     Style: BJJ/Judo/Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz
    FP, Spartan,

    While all of what you've written may be accurate it is still outside of the topic of this thread. If you want to start a thread on the merits of kata in Judo go right a head but in this thread it does not add anything to the discussion of Judo throws and their resemblance to koryu throws.
    My main point is that the kata throws are the closest to koryu throws, and the majority of modern judo players do not bother with them, thus the majority of judo throws are not similar at all to koryu throws.
  3. Fitz is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/06/2007 10:15am


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Virus
    I'm speculating to a degree here, but from what I've seen I looks like judoka are lighter on their feet and more explosive in the application of the throw. However I have only seen JJJ kata which many people will say isn't the real JJJ.
    It's a generalization but I think you are on to something.

    Some of it is cultural artifact. Given the weight of armor, common footwear and general style of movement common to the periods when many of the koryu foms were developed the idea of moving from the balls of your feet was likely uncommon. It would put you into a dangerous dynamic balance. Many koryu preserve these kind of older movement style despite the fact that they are no longer training in armor.

    Judo, having essentially come loose from Japanese culutre and become an internationalist activity has modified their movement style considerably. Concerns about the weight of armor are completely gone and the kinds of culturally Japanese body movements are minimized. You also have a freedom of leg movement that would not be there if your opponent had the option of kicking you and was intentionally looking for ways to blow out your knees or crack your hip joint. This allows judoka to concentrate exclusively on how to execute a throw.
  4. BloodMagus is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/06/2007 12:50pm


     Style: Battojutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz
    It's a generalization but I think you are on to something.

    Some of it is cultural artifact. Given the weight of armor, common footwear and general style of movement common to the periods when many of the koryu foms were developed the idea of moving from the balls of your feet was likely uncommon. It would put you into a dangerous dynamic balance. Many koryu preserve these kind of older movement style despite the fact that they are no longer training in armor.
    I believe that when in armour, you're taught to pivot on the heel as opposed to the ball of the foot. But as for movement, you're still leading with the ball of the foot to assist in 'feeling' where you're going. You're just not staying on the ball of the foot anywhere it isn't necessary.

    Anyone got some texts by Draeger to confirm/deny?

    Would be interesting to put on some kendo armour, and have a bit of a roll. I know its not as heavy, but its a start.
  5. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

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    Posted On:
    6/06/2007 2:31pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Pivot on your heel?

    I'm sorry, I'm not convinced. Do you have a source for that?
  6. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/07/2007 3:56am

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     Style: Judo

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    Isn't pivoting on your heel a good way to increase the friction with the ground and the possibility of injuring your knee?
  7. BloodMagus is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2007 9:37am


     Style: Battojutsu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Virus
    Isn't pivoting on your heel a good way to increase the friction with the ground and the possibility of injuring your knee?
    I fail to see how this is going to increase the friction compared to pivoting on the balls of your feet. It should be identical

    To get all scientific, Friction Force is a product of the surface coefficient mutliplied by the force of across the surface. It is not a product of area. So unless your heel and ball have a different coeffecient (i.e one is like sand paper and one is like glass), there should be no difference as the force exerted will remain the same (gravity multiplied by weight), hence friciton will remain the same.

    The advantage of pivoting on the heel, opposed to the ball, is you're not required to stand up onto the ball which would require more muscular work. And when you're in 90 pounds of armour, attacking enemies in several directions, this will be the difference between getting tired after 20 mins as opposed to 5mins etc.

    Now as to injuring the knee, yeah that same thought occured to me when I was first told about having to pivot on the heel. The other thought was, won't you lose balance?
    I guess the only remark is, you practice so that neither of the two happen. It is to me, strictly an armour technique and I can see no other function for it beyond that. If you're not carrying 90 pounds of extra weight, then there's no need for it.

    In addition to this, there's also half & half approach where you pivot on one heel and the ball for the other foot, and swap half way so that you can turn 180 degrees without changing your stance and losing balance. I'm unsure whether this was for use in armour as well. I found this more natural then both heels, but not as natural as both balls.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lu Tze
    I'm sorry, I'm not convinced. Do you have a source for that?
    Beyond the 'this is what I was taught' source, no. Hence my request for someone with access to Draeger's texts to confirm or deny this. I would think he'd covered it extensively somewhere.

    All I've got access to right now is Munenori's Life Giving Sword, I'll check through my Gf's collection tomorrow. One of her books had a significant section on armour.
  8. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    6/07/2007 11:13am

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     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't like the sound of spinning on your heel. I tried some judo stepping just then and it seems to require dorsiflexion of the ankle, which encourages locking out the knee. You also don't have a "sprung" ankle which makes it slower to move, and offers poor biomechanics for delivering a powerful plantaflexion, which is the basis for a powerful throw. <tries it again> It doesn't feel good at all. I prefer the judo method of getting up on your toes, slightly bending the knees and having a straight back.
    Last edited by Virus; 6/07/2007 11:15am at .
  9. BloodMagus is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/07/2007 12:08pm


     Style: Battojutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Virus
    I don't like the sound of spinning on your heel. I tried some judo stepping just then and it seems to require dorsiflexion of the ankle, which encourages locking out the knee. You also don't have a "sprung" ankle which makes it slower to move, and offers poor biomechanics for delivering a powerful plantaflexion, which is the basis for a powerful throw. <tries it again> It doesn't feel good at all. I prefer the judo method of getting up on your toes, slightly bending the knees and having a straight back.
    Look, I completely agree with you, it doesn't feel good. You feel off balance, and yes the torsion in your leg tells you this can't be good in the long run. Under normal circumstance, I see absolutely no need, nor any desire to pivot like this. Would I use this movement in a fight? Hell no. In kendo armour? No need to, its not that heavy.

    But my suggestion is this, get a backpack and fill it up with as many heavy items as you can (or pick someone up...). Now compare pivoting on the balls of your feet vs the heel. Thats where I believe it comes into play. Pivot a few times on the ball of your foot, say for a minute or two. Then try on the heel. It should feel less tiring.

    Thats the only reason I think it was used. Because when you're covered in *alot* armour and you're stuck on the battlefield for an undeterminable time, this will help conserve energy.
    You're sarcificing a bit of speed & mobility in favour of longer endurance.


    I frankly don't see any use in this during judo match, or on the street.
  10. Liger is offline

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    Posted On:
    6/08/2007 10:23am


     Style: WC,JJ,Kenju,C.BoxN,ElboNe

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BloodMagus
    I believe that when in armour, you're taught to pivot on the heel as opposed to the ball of the foot. But as for movement, you're still leading with the ball of the foot to assist in 'feeling' where you're going. You're just not staying on the ball of the foot anywhere it isn't necessary.

    Anyone got some texts by Draeger to confirm/deny?

    Would be interesting to put on some kendo armour, and have a bit of a roll. I know its not as heavy, but its a start.
    Researching texts. Meanwhile...

    Moving more towards the ball of the foot than the heel not only makes more sense, but considering footwork used with weapons, especially in kenjutsu, moving on the heel is fairly odd. Weapon use was of first priority until post warring states period, and most weapon footwork is closer to the balls of the feet. It's unlikely they would move to pivot on the heel footwork when they have MORE mobility since no yoroi is on.

    http://www.wakagashira.com/images/yoroi1.jpg

    How is this anything like a gi? hint: It's not
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