Judo Throws and the Resemblance to Koryu

**Liger** · Posted On: 6/04/2007 8:27pm

Kime and Katame no kata are from/influenced by Takenouchi Ryu, and are executed slightly differently in koryu schools influenced by that ryu(atemi waza is present in the koryu version that is not in the judo one)

Also, and this is something covered by Dreager, koryu techniques depend less on the gi traditionally. This might have changed in recent times though

**Fitz** · Posted On: 6/05/2007 9:19am

Originally Posted by spartan6

All Judo throws are varients from their Ko ryu origins. Made to be safer and cause less damage or fatal damage for the use in sports or competition.

That's the common perception but it is not correct. Kano did not develop Judo to be a sport ot to be focused mainly on competition. Both of those developments took place after Kano's death and reflected the need for Kodokan Judo to remake and remarket itself as acceptable to the US occupation after WW2.

The throws were modified to allow for safe regular training with a minimum of damage to practitioners.

Traditional seoi nage - Grab the arm. Palm facing out with the arm braced against your shoulder. Break the arm (works on some armor, other armor will protect the arm) while lifting the opponent up. Place the opponents palm on the ground by sweeping your leg backward through their legs. (much like a roll)

Lifting throws are rather rare in armored circumstances and rely upon turning the opponent around your armor rather then taking their weight onto yourself in most circumstances. Within the art you have apparently been learning take a look at the Kukishinden Ryu Happo Biken when it is done by someone familiar with it. You'll notice nearly all of the throws require deeply stepping behind your opponent and turning them across your lower back and pelvis or very for the few that revolve around forward contact they are passed sharply off of your hips.

Seoi nage, in the fashion that is found within Judo, descends more from the post-Waring States non-armored jujutsu styles (Tenji Shinyo-ryu was only on its third generation when Kano studied it) then it does from yoroi kumiuchi though yoroi training was significant to the material in the Kito Ryu.

To get a sense of how Kito ryu's yoroi kumiuchi looked in Kano's time however check out the Kodokan's Koshiki No Kata. You'll notice very little of the oppoent's body weight is taken upon the thrower in these methods.

The heavy Gi jackets in Judo act much like armor. If you ever get the chance to practice against armor you will find that the gaps in the armor are perfect hand holds and will be in much the same place as you would use in Judo.

I wouldn't say that they act much like armor but the habit of grabbing the lapel in the fashion that is done in Judo is related to where one traditionally grabbed the tied on yoroi. The convention of holding the elbow however is not related to yoroi training but rather a result of training in kimono and keikogi. With yoroi you typically see the wrist as a holding point of the other hand.

**Virus** · Posted On: 6/05/2007 9:29am

Does koryu jujitsu mainly fight with the feet flat on the ground or on the balls of the feet?

**Sophist** · Posted On: 6/05/2007 9:39am

Originally Posted by spartan6

All Judo throws are varients from their Ko ryu origins. Made to be safer and cause less damage or fatal damage for the use in sports or competition.

No. A few are unique to judo (e.g. hane-goshi). Some are borrowed from other sources than koryu jujitsu (e.g. kata guruma). A great many are borrowed more or less unvarnished from the original koryu techniques; a lot of judo's safety came from rejecting techniques rather than alterations.

Originally Posted by spartan6

But at their core all throws work on the same principles. Judo throws aim to throw people on their back where as traditional battlefield throws aim to put someone on their head to break the neck.

Again, not really. Getting your opponent to the floor so you could slip a dagger through his armour was often enough.

Originally Posted by spartan6

Judo seoi nage - Grab the arm. Palm facing towards you, shift your hips in and throw using legs placed together, knees bent.

Traditional seoi nage - Grab the arm. Palm facing out with the arm braced against your shoulder. Break the arm (works on some armor, other armor will protect the arm) while lifting the opponent up. Place the opponents palm on the ground by sweeping your leg backward through their legs. (much like a roll)

Entirely false. Seoi nage is known to have entered koryu jujitsu from sumo, the oldest surviving Japanese martial art.
http://sumo.goo.ne.jp/eng/kimarite/7.html

The technique you describe is a hideous gendai jujitsu retrofit that would never work on a resisting opponent. The huge shittiness of standing armlocks is not a recent thing.

Originally Posted by spartan6

The heavy Gi jackets in Judo act much like armor. If you ever get the chance to practice against armor you will find that the gaps in the armor are perfect hand holds and will be in much the same place as you would use in Judo.

You've never practised against armour ever.

**FictionPimp** · Posted On: 6/05/2007 2:58pm

My judo instructor talking to a Brown belt getting ready for his black.

"Ok, I'm going to have to track down someone to teach you this stupid kata, I haven't done it in at least 20 some years."

**Fitz** · Posted On: 6/05/2007 3:34pm

Originally Posted by FictionPimp

My judo instructor talking to a Brown belt getting ready for his black.

"Ok, I'm going to have to track down someone to teach you this stupid kata, I haven't done it in at least 20 some years."

How does this related to "Judo Throws and the Resemblance to Koryu"?

**FictionPimp** · Posted On: 6/05/2007 11:34pm

Exactly, my point was that the kata is more of a resemblance of the Koryu arts. And it is so very unimportant to my instructor that he struggles to remember all the crap you need to do for the kata. So he just ships it off to some older guy who loves the kata. His opinion is learn the kata, get your black belt, never waste time on it again.

**Virus** · Posted On: 6/06/2007 1:20am

Originally Posted by FictionPimp

My judo instructor talking to a Brown belt getting ready for his black.

"Ok, I'm going to have to track down someone to teach you this stupid kata, I haven't done it in at least 20 some years."

My judo instructor: "learn to fight before you worry about kata"

and even then I'm still not going to worry about it.

**Fitz** · Posted On: 6/06/2007 7:32am

FP, Spartan,

While all of what you've written may be accurate it is still outside of the topic of this thread. If you want to start a thread on the merits of kata in Judo go right a head but in this thread it does not add anything to the discussion of Judo throws and their resemblance to koryu throws.

**Virus** · Posted On: 6/06/2007 8:20am

I'm speculating to a degree here, but from what I've seen I looks like judoka are lighter on their feet and more explosive in the application of the throw. However I have only seen JJJ kata which many people will say isn't the real JJJ.