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  1. hawkmed is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/10/2007 12:00am

    Bullshido Newbie
     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Judo Throws and the Resemblance to Koryu

    I was curious as to the resemblance of Judo throws to their koryu origins. Are the throws well preserved from their lineage, or have they greatly changed? Was there as much emphasis on the jacket (as in Morote-Seoi-Nage) as a source of contact for the throws as in their koryu counterparts?
  2. wackamole is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/10/2007 12:06am


     Style: etc

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Check out Draeger's kata book on nage no kata and katame no kata.

    Gasp. Dead patterns. Draeger seemed to like 'em and he was a bad ass.

    Wonder why?
  3. Plasma is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/10/2007 12:21am

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     Style: 柔術

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by hawkmed
    I was curious as to the resemblance of Judo throws to their koryu origins. Are the throws well preserved from their lineage, or have they greatly changed? Was there as much emphasis on the jacket (as in Morote-Seoi-Nage) as a source of contact for the throws as in their koryu counterparts?
    Many throws were similiar if not the same. For example, Osoto Gake is found in numerous Ko ryu . However, throws like Seio Nage become a bit impractical when one's opponent is wearing 80 pounds on armour. That is where throws such as Ganseki Nage is more usable. When the end of the warring states and the fact people stopped wearing armour, the more Ko Ryu throws were turned into more modern Judo.

    I might post again when I haven't been up for 20 hours straight and didn't just get back from a 4 hours Koppojutsu and Kenjutsu session.
  4. Fitz is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/10/2007 7:20am


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The major differences between Judo throws and their Koryu counterparts can be boiled down to intent and mechanics. Judo throws are designed to allow fellow practitioners to catch breakfalls by landing them squarely on their backs and will most likely incapacitate an unskilled "victim" of such a thrown rather then kill them. Many koryu throws are built around landing the opponent in such a fashion that it either severely incapacitates them or straight out kills them by preventing them from being able to make any form of breakfall. These separate intents change the mechanics of the throws.

    The most Koryu looking material in Judo is contained in the now rarely practiced Koshi-no-kata which Kano formulated to preserve elements of Kito-ryu techniques thought it was definately "Kano-ized for safety." You can see Kano* engaged in portions of this kata at

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3r59hDG3Vw

    You can see a more recent presentation of it, with all its oddly stylized ceremonial features and slow pace influence of the Kano recording, at

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3xFGrWXZjs

    I'd love to see a few people who have trained this material for practical rather then ceremonial use but somehow I doubt it will happen in m life time.

    As far as Draeger and "dead patterns" goes have a look at

    http://www.judoinfo.com/kata.htm

    to see that his interest in Kata was fueled by a dissatisfaction with it being practiced in a compliant fashion.

    *Kind of fun seeing the founder of Judo wearing "magic pants" and "ninja booties." Didn't he know they were t3h gh3y?
  5. WorldWarCheese is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/10/2007 7:31am


     Style: Muay Thai n00b

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz
    The major differences between Judo throws and their Koryu counterparts can be boiled down to intent and mechanics. Judo throws are designed to allow fellow practitioners to catch breakfalls by landing them squarely on their backs and will most likely incapacitate an unskilled "victim" of such a thrown rather then kill them. Many koryu throws are built around landing the opponent in such a fashion that it either severely incapacitates them or straight out kills them by preventing them from being able to make any form of breakfall. These separate intents change the mechanics of the throws.

    The most Koryu looking material in Judo is contained in the now rarely practiced Koshi-no-kata which Kano formulated to preserve elements of Kito-ryu techniques thought it was definately "Kano-ized for safety." You can see Kano* engaged in portions of this kata at

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3r59hDG3Vw

    You can see a more recent presentation of it, with all its oddly stylized ceremonial features and slow pace influence of the Kano recording, at

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3xFGrWXZjs

    I'd love to see a few people who have trained this material for practical rather then ceremonial use but somehow I doubt it will happen in m life time.

    As far as Draeger and "dead patterns" goes have a look at

    http://www.judoinfo.com/kata.htm

    to see that his interest in Kata was fueled by a dissatisfaction with it being practiced in a compliant fashion.

    *Kind of fun seeing the founder of Judo wearing "magic pants" and "ninja booties." Didn't he know they were t3h gh3y?
    GOD FUCKING PIECE OF **** DAMN MOTHER FUCKER YOU BEAT ME TO IT!!! ARRRRGHHHH!
    (Loss of sleep or hangover? Either way I'm pissed):icon_mad: :icon_mad: :icon_mad: :icon_mad:

    Yeah, what he said.

    [Edit: Reading the Draeger article has instentaneously changed my mind about Judo Kata]
    Last edited by WorldWarCheese; 2/10/2007 7:40am at .
  6. Fitz is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/10/2007 7:49am


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWarCheese
    [Edit: Reading the Draeger article has instentaneously changed my mind about Judo Kata]
    He has a funny way of doing that to people.

    Now go and convert another and see if you can start some kind of non-compliant Judo kata training movement.

    (In answer to your question, mostly sleep loss)
  7. WorldWarCheese is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/10/2007 8:12am


     Style: Muay Thai n00b

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz
    He has a funny way of doing that to people.

    Now go and convert another and see if you can start some kind of non-compliant Judo kata training movement.

    (In answer to your question, mostly sleep loss)
    Bringing back the "randori" in Randori no Kata? Kinda tough for a gokyu, don'tcha think? Either way I'm seriously thinking about adding Nage no Kata into my fellow Kyu's and my informal weekend trainning sessions. (The one good thing about being the former "junior sensei" of a krotty McDojo that I now sponsors a seperate Judo Club who needs the matt space which I switched to.... I have the keys to the Dojo:walk: )
  8. sicky is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/28/2007 6:24am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I Love this. it shows some forms of Judo that are long forgotten by most practicioners.
  9. WorldWarCheese is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/28/2007 9:43am


     Style: Muay Thai n00b

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Welcome to Bullshido.net: Japanophiles Section. And I don't think Judoka have forgotten these forms, but rather since they're basically used as tradition and grading and formality (not saying that's what they are, but the fact is that's what they've basically become to most Judoka) that the just don't really bother with them and have replaced the forms with Uchi Komis, that's all.
  10. wackamole is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/02/2007 12:01am


     Style: etc

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    a lot of teachers will use the sections from the kata to teach a throw. they just don't tell the students it's from the kata.

    or, they will have the students practice the throw "kata style" with increasing resistance by the uke.
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