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  1. BackFistMonkey is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/14/2007 10:34pm

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     Style: Recovery-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by G-low
    P.S. To keep this on topic, to reverse their failure they need to start fighting, or at least conduct some realistic sparring.
    With proper training and pressure testing , you will be forced to improve your mind and body in order to achieve your goals . It is part of the natural training process .

    .. as an example , I have learned most random people will have their hands full in a violent confrontation with me . I know this as fact and have and will laugh at people in their faces when they try to start **** . I don't have anything to prove , so I only fight (outside of training and pressure testing) when forced to .

    Gee ... sounds about like the TMA mind set right ? Wrong ... I know , deep down in my heart most people can't hang because I have sparred or fought almost everyone in this town who is down for training . If they were a noob , or street fighter , ghetto boxer , or TKD'er , or HKDist , or students of the foolish old San Shou instructor , or karateka from the community center , or from the other back yard training groups , I could hold my own and control the matches almost without problem .

    But ... most of the guys from the BJJ/JKD school either hold their own with me or own me like I own the guys and gals from the other schools and groups in town . The guys @ Three Rivers M.A. (The BJJ/JKD gym ) all suffer from "low ego and don't have **** to prove" but will jump on the mat in a heartbeat . While the TMA guys are always trying tell me how how excellent their art is and how it can maim and kill easily , but must eased and coaxed into any live training or competition .


    Untested TMAers are just guessing and going on what sensei/sifu/master says will happen . As I mentioned above ... they also have a tendency to be holier than thou , because they are insecure deep down inside . You can't drill , sit in stances for hours , focus on kata , compete in point sparring or light contact stop/start bullshit , and actually have faith in your skills . Unless of course you are a complete fool who operates on blind faith .
    Last edited by BackFistMonkey; 2/14/2007 10:36pm at .
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhi108 View Post
    Nuke a unborn gay whale for Christ.
    I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
    BILL HICKS,
    1961-1994
  2. BackFistMonkey is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/14/2007 10:57pm

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     Style: Recovery-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    After my last post and the Alien ( to me ) nature of glad2bhere's (Bruce) last few posts I went off into the wild world of Google to see what I could find about Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido .

    I am not trying to roast you here Bruce . I have actually enjoyed our exchanges . I hope DngRus shows up so you can talk to some people still involved in Hapkido , yet are doing it with full contact and live training . Word on the street is that there are some bad asses in his school .

    http://www.midwesthapkido.com/Approach.htm
    What is the Academic Hapkido?

    Academic Hapkido is not a new art. Rather it is a fundamental reorganization of Yon Moo Kwan Hapkido techniques and material; a change in the method by which the art is taught. The result is a logical progression of material from the simplest to most complex techniques and finally to weapons training. Unlike the traditional presentation of Hapkido material in which the practitioner is asked to master disparate techniques defined by application, the academic approach invites the student to learn in a logical progression building later levels of expertise on earlier levels of mastery. In this way Academic Hapkido produces four major advantages to the Hapkido practitioner.

    • Retention. Using the Academic Hapkido approach students have a logical format to help them organize their art. This allows them to experience a wider range of techniques and recall those techniques for additional practice and comparison.
    • Goals: Using the Academic approach assists the student in identifying how far and how fast they care to progress. With a clear understanding of how the art is organized and progresses, a student is able to make informed choices about their Martial art training just as with any other educational experience.
    • Progress: Using the academic approach insures that the student is consistently aware of their place in the curriculum and what skills require their attention at any given time.
    • Simplification: Using the academic approach respects the incorporation of Korean culture in classroom instruction at the discretion of the instructor and as the ability of the students provides. By re-organizing techniques in a logical fashion, and reducing some cultural aspects of the art, the academic approach allows the practitioner to focus primarily on improvement of their skills and their personal growth.
    This is a good start on teaching Hapkido .

    A major glaring issue . NOTHING IS MENTIONED ABOUT SPARRING .

    Maybe in another section ... under curriculum ?

    The curriculum taught at Midwest Hapkido is a reorganization of traditional Hapkido techniques. The techniques themselves continue to be taught in their traditional format, but the overall organization of the order in which the techniques are taught has been has been changed to support an improved training experience for the students. If this seems like double talk, lets remember how Hapkido, in fact, most oriental martial arts are taught.

    Founded in traditional oriental culture, martial arts usually were organized as a haphazard series of survival "tricks" that were taught ancillary to the more broadly accepted weaponry of ancient battlefields. The first real organization came with the infusion of Buddhist thought in the 400-s and 500-s AD. With the Buddhist approach one essentially trained until their teacher decided the student was competent either to move on to other interests or to be identified as having mastered their art.

    Centuries later, the infusion of Confucianism introduced the use of tests and a hierarchy of grades. This advancement at least brought standardization within individual styles, and one could expect to master a roughly standard curriculum, though with variances from teacher to teacher and school to school. This is the approach with which most martial artists are familiar. However, this standardization comes at a cost.

    Because the Confucian approach can be unique from teacher to teacher a single teacher can present a certification and the student will assume that his instructor will be as well-educated in the art as any other. This is not the case. Martial arts, including Hapkido, is rife with individuals who are spoken of albeit in hushed tones regarding the questionable circumstances under which they attained their rank or market themselves to the public. The Confucian approach shields these individuals by making it difficult to bring them to accountability for what they teach. You have probably heard that Hapkido is an "eclectic" art. This is not true, but given this explanation its probably easy to understand how this reputation began.

    More importantly, with its wide variance of organization, the martial art student experiences considerable difficulty in retention and organization making a challenging journey much more difficult than it needs to be.

    The academic approach used at Midwest Hapkido has reorganized the philosophy, concepts and techniques of the art of Hapkido in such a fashion that subsequent levels build directly on preceding levels. Emphasis is solely on the technique itself with combat or "street" application relegated to the practicum portion of each class.

    In addition, each level of Hapkido training includes units concerning the personal growth of the student. In mastering the physical portion of this art, it is very important that the student simultaneously develop a maturity and ethic that will help them to make good decisions concerning its use. conjunction with the more.

    For further information regarding this teaching approach, organization of the various training levels, or availability of the training manuals, please contact me at www.midwesthapkido.com.
    hmmm ... nope nothing in there except kata , drilling , personal growth , and ethics and morals . Which I would hope the students would have BEFORE you accept them into your school . What makes you think you can teach them better than their own flesh and blood ?

    http://www.midwesthapkido.com/4thblack.htm

    Good lord man not even any sparring required for 4th black ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhi108 View Post
    Nuke a unborn gay whale for Christ.
    I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
    BILL HICKS,
    1961-1994
  3. biomed190 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2007 12:19am


     Style: JKD BJJ JUDO MUY THAI

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    For our schools blackbelt test I was required to do 100 SD techniques, 32 different kicks, spar 5 minutes no pads except a mouthpiece, followed by 100 rolls in 5 minutes. Not too bad except I started feeling ill during the rolls from eating a big lunch.


    My cousin had to sleep outside in the woods and he had to get in a freezing cold lake to get his blackbelt in Karate.
  4. glad2bhere is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2007 12:19am


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No, we don't "spar". Instead we do something called "free form".

    The first three levels are to learn the material and that is accomplished with much grabbing and drills. However, when a person hits Brown Belt we begin to use multiple attacks to help integrate the striking, kicking, locks throws and pins. Things continue in this manner for the rest of the ranks from Brown Belt on up. Hope this helps.

    As far as teaching morals and ethics, I'm afraid that sorta comes with the territory.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Last edited by glad2bhere; 2/15/2007 12:22am at .
  5. BackFistMonkey is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/15/2007 1:22am

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     Style: Recovery-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    No, we don't "spar". Instead we do something called "free form".

    The first three levels are to learn the material and that is accomplished with much grabbing and drills. However, when a person hits Brown Belt we begin to use multiple attacks to help integrate the striking, kicking, locks throws and pins. Things continue in this manner for the rest of the ranks from Brown Belt on up. Hope this helps.

    As far as teaching morals and ethics, I'm afraid that sorta comes with the territory.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    So the students aren't actually learning to put it all together against even limited resistance till black belt level ?

    I understand as things stand now it is your job to teach as you are told to . Nothing wrong with that . You are doing something I wish I was in a position to do (teach M.A.) . I am serious about the ethics and morals . I believe it is the parents job to instill values and work ethic into a child . After that it is up to the individual . Sure you can help guide and shape in order to help advance a students training , but only if they care enough themselves to work on it .

    Ultimately it is up to the student to either change or pretend to change to get the belts under your system , which has nothing to do with the Martial aspects of your art .

    Even at the McDojang I trained at we did judo styled Randori from week one . Light contact sparring the week later . By your green belt you were doing medium contact sparring with striking and take downs in TKD gear . We rarely went from striking to grappling on the ground and never with strikes on the ground during free sparring .

    I didn't learn to apply 2/3 of the techniques ( that ended up working against resistance ) I learned in Hapkido until I started training full contact outside of the Dojang with the guys from Three Rivers and the other schools . I am not a slow learner despite the fact that I am near illiterate . It was the fact that real conflict and resistance with intent is a totally different animal than what I had been prepared and trained for . Under live training my learning curve has been much more satisfying .

    Not to mention the fact the training itself is more addicting and more satisfying . I can't turn away live training with people better than me . I sleep better and laugh more after getting thrown around , punched , kicked , and choked . Doesn't matter if I win or lose when I spar , just knowing I learned a practical thing or two from it is enough . So I always hop on the mat with a smile .
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhi108 View Post
    Nuke a unborn gay whale for Christ.
    I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
    BILL HICKS,
    1961-1994
  6. biomed190 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2007 2:08am


     Style: JKD BJJ JUDO MUY THAI

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    No, we don't "spar". Instead we do something called "free form".

    The first three levels are to learn the material and that is accomplished with much grabbing and drills. However, when a person hits Brown Belt we begin to use multiple attacks to help integrate the striking, kicking, locks throws and pins. Things continue in this manner for the rest of the ranks from Brown Belt on up. Hope this helps.

    As far as teaching morals and ethics, I'm afraid that sorta comes with the territory.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    How long does it take to hit Brown Belt at your school? It took me a round 3 years to get my brown.

    I'm sure what you do works for your school. I can remember my first day of class getting to spar. We like to get everyone in the mix right away. We take it easy on them but my sensai thinks you need to get used to getting hit right away.
  7. glad2bhere is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2007 9:11am


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have to tell you that I think this is GREAT!!!!

    I wish to hell I might have been able to get this sort of discussion going with other Hapkido practitioners. Unfortunately things almost always revert to a defnesive posture or with one person championing a particular view. If folks are interested I would like to share a bit of the thinking that went into the project that produced what you are seeing on the Midwest Hapkido website.

    a.) First off, I determined as a person university-trained as a teacher, that the Confucian Model used most commonly in teaching the Hapkido arts is counter-productive for Western students. Western students are trained from Day-One in our educational system to follow the Academic Model. Likewise, we use Scientific Method and encourage discussion and questions. I am not saying that the Confucian Model is completely a waste. In those cultures which have Confucian ethos in their make-up one would expect no less. But in Western Culture people seem to learn faster when they see Logic and patterns of development.

    b.) Using a seizing attack for the first three grades focuses on a person truely getting a firm foundation in the technique. This is important for two reasons. First, that a person truely knows how to use the materia of the art they are learning and perform accurate and effective execution without having to worry about losing confidence or being embarrassed because they technique does not work. Second a thorough understanding of the technique as performed correctly means that a person knows what to look for as far as adding material later (More on this after a bit.).

    c.) The graduation to "free-form" at Brown Belt means that a person begins to execute a given range of techniques under pressure and with an eye towards recycling from one situation to another in rapid succession.

    d.) My teacher has emphasized that what he teaches is the "skeleton" upon which one is expected to build. This could easily play out with, say, the Positions of Disadvantage (3rd BB) being expanded to include experiences, techniques and views that one finds in BJJ. The only problem that I have found is that too many folks do not want to learn the Korean material first but go straight to BJJ. This is not altogether bad except that it causes some issues in maintaining the integrity of the art. Perhaps a small price to pay if it truely improves the Hapkido arts, I can't say.

    Let me stop here and find out what people are thinking. I can go on for quite a while about this as I think discussions like this are HUGE for the Hapkido community, but I am not sure that community is up to the challenge of this sort of discussion. At least thats the way I see it. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
  8. BackFistMonkey is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/15/2007 2:30pm

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     Style: Recovery-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I do not understand your points .

    Could you please link me to a video of what you do instead of sparring ?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhi108 View Post
    Nuke a unborn gay whale for Christ.
    I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
    BILL HICKS,
    1961-1994
  9. glad2bhere is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2007 10:57pm


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Unfortunately, I don't have footage but thats not to say that I can't put it on my "to-do" list. I have made a personal commitment to get clips of material out on the forums. Its a bit of a risk since most folks in the Hapkido community use such opportunities to "expose" others. The "revelations" are usually done by people who, themselves, never quite get around to showing their OWN stuff, or by folks who then charge for the product. Life goes on, right?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
  10. glad2bhere is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/15/2007 11:04pm


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by biomed190
    How long does it take to hit Brown Belt at your school? It took me a round 3 years to get my brown.

    I'm sure what you do works for your school. I can remember my first day of class getting to spar. We like to get everyone in the mix right away. We take it easy on them but my sensai thinks you need to get used to getting hit right away.
    Its not so much time as much as its mat hours a person has to accrue. It works like this.

    A white Belt has to accrue 78 mat hours before they can apply to test for Yellow.
    A Yellow Belt has to accrue 156 mat hours before they can apply to test for Blue.
    A Blue Belt has to accrue 234 mat hours before they can apply to test for Brown.
    A Brown has to accrue 312 mat hours before they can apply to test for Black.

    If you figure all things being equal you can say that 78 mat hours is about 6 months or so.
    A quick tally makes the trip to Cho-dan about 5 years, two of which is spent at Brown. Does this help?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
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