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  1. MaverickZ is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/13/2007 6:07pm

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     Style: white boy jiujitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    glad2bhere, it sounds like you come from a very insular world of mcdojoish martial art schools. There ARE schools that survive that do not pander to the lowest common denominator.
  2. BackFistMonkey is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/13/2007 6:09pm

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     Style: Recovery-Fu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    ...Unfortunately teaching MA also includes some cultural, ethical and moral imperatives. Thats what makes it a MA, plain and simple. The question for this thread is "can arts like KUKSOOL etc etc be saved". I guess my answer is a qualified "yes" but not as large mills which constantly defer to the public. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Actually MA does not need the cultural , ethical , and moral imperatives some people include to bloat the syllabus , make things more complicated , and adds mystery and legitamacy in the eyes of the ignorant . All of those things supposedly help student retention and spread interest in MA to those people who want to LARP and do tea three times a weak .

    Hapkido is a Mutt are of JTMA (judo ,aikijistsu (spelling?) , shotokan , karate , TKD , etc) , and western MAs ( like boxing and kickboxing ) , even some CMA influence in a number of Dojangs . I think this is a good thing as long as the art is trained alive , against resistance , and is constantly evolving into a personal art the students can defend themselves with .

    Training Methods will bring results students will see , be proud of , and make them want to continue . Hapkido should not be about anything but kicking ass , protecting self through harmonization with one's fears and the knowledge the you can do what needs to be done .

    In order to train hard , with proper methods and conditioning , you can't really avoid exploring yourself and hopefully you as a student received proper parenting and guidance at home . If these conditions are met , then you will see who and what you are along with what needs to change within your mind and your body .

    I feel you may be better off with full time job , teaching after work and on the weekends . Or you need to market to a group besides soccer moms and preteens .
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhi108 View Post
    Nuke a unborn gay whale for Christ.
    I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
    BILL HICKS,
    1961-1994
  3. glad2bhere is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2007 9:51am


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MaverickZ
    glad2bhere, it sounds like you come from a very insular world of mcdojoish martial art schools. There ARE schools that survive that do not pander to the lowest common denominator.
    Thanks, Maverick:

    Not sure how insular it is, but I know that such "McDojo"-type schools are prevalent and that they have not helped the survival of the arts under discussion. The fact is that participation in a traditional KMA such as those mentioned in the title, can be long boring hours of repetitive practice which continues week in and week out, year after year. After the first few months the novelty of doing some new activity begins to wear-off and the individual needs to start to face the fact that he is hungry for recognition, advancement, power/control or some other reinforcer to keep him going. In many ways this is identical to a recruit learning to submit to the discipline of Boot Camp or Basic Training. This is where the individual needs to drop his illusions about himself and begin to accept maybe some not-so-nice things about himself like superficiality and immaturity. These are not easy things to face down, and most people quit rather than deal with these challenges. After all, how many people want to look at the fact that without some sufficient external reinforcer they are content to bounce from activity to activity, never really accomplishing any real growth of any mention, yes? FWIW.

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
  4. G-low is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2007 12:47pm


     Style: Karazy

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    In many ways this is identical to a recruit learning to submit to the discipline of Boot Camp or Basic Training. This is where the individual needs to drop his illusions about himself and begin to accept maybe some not-so-nice things about himself like superficiality and immaturity.
    I don't see your comparison between bootcamp and beginning training in martial arts. I'm assuming you are speaking of traditional martial arts since it is the subject of the thread. In this case it seems some people actually develop illusions of their own abilities and fighting in general.
  5. glad2bhere is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2007 2:11pm


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by G-low
    I don't see your comparison between bootcamp and beginning training in martial arts. I'm assuming you are speaking of traditional martial arts since it is the subject of the thread. In this case it seems some people actually develop illusions of their own abilities and fighting in general.
    Thanks, G-Low, but my thinking was a bit more along the lines of what Backfistmonkey was sharing. To my way of thinking the central issue is about self-discovery and facing down your demons. Traditional MA simply use old methods and venues with historic or military connections. I would bet dollars against donuts that most of the newer venues such as the current popularity of MMA and NHB are producing many ofthe same results but without as much focus. I can't imagine a person getting out on a mat and going full-out with another individual and not having to face down fears, feelings of inadequacy, lack of confidence and so forth to get there. Know what I mean? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
  6. BackFistMonkey is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/14/2007 2:25pm

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     Style: Recovery-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    I can't imagine a person getting out on a mat and going full-out with another individual and not having to face down fears, feelings of inadequacy, lack of confidence and so forth to get there. Know what I mean? Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Fears, feelings of inadequacy, and lack of confidence come from being unsure of your skill level and being untested . Almost everyone gets the jitters and the buttterflies ... but I get the feeling you are talking about more than just nerves .
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhi108 View Post
    Nuke a unborn gay whale for Christ.
    I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
    BILL HICKS,
    1961-1994
  7. glad2bhere is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2007 2:33pm


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BackFistMonkey
    Fears, feelings of inadequacy, and lack of confidence come from being unsure of your skill level and being untested . Almost everyone gets the jitters and the buttterflies ... but I get the feeling you are talking about more than just nerves .

    Well, yes. After all everybody who ever did anything was originally in a position where they had never done it before. Going back to my comment about Basic Training, there is, after all, a reason why the Army does not just give a guy a rifle and put him in a uniform. Part of that is to teach them what to do with the weapon, true enough. Another part, however is to work on his attitude and thinking so that he is able to overcome his natural tendency not to kill another person, not to run away and not to sit in the bottom of his hole and crap his pants.

    When it comes to TMA there are also demons to overcome. Some people are afraid of getting hit or kicked. Some people want to use their new skills to victimize the weaker. Some want to have folks 'oooww and ahhh' over the neat uniform and the fancy patches. Everybody has their demons and facing those demons down is what TMA is about. That and figuring out how to be of greater service to one's society. FWIW. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
  8. BackFistMonkey is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/14/2007 4:42pm

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     Style: Recovery-Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    When it comes to TMA there are also demons to overcome. Some people are afraid of getting hit or kicked. Some people want to use their new skills to victimize the weaker. Some want to have folks 'oooww and ahhh' over the neat uniform and the fancy patches. Everybody has their demons and facing those demons down is what TMA is about. That and figuring out how to be of greater service to one's society. FWIW. Thoughts?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Martial Arts should be about fighting and controlling your target everything else is superfluous and ego driven , smiling happy glad hands , bullshit .

    TMAs were originally created for the same purpose and had training methods similiar to todays Combat Sports ( tons of live resistant training ) . The only goals were to fight , learn , record , teach and pass on techniques and methodologies that worked .

    Unfortunately they failed completely and we are left with schools that are full of LARPers , fakes , not to mention the : untested , out of shape , men and women with Dan ranks around their waist who think they are deadly killing machines .
    Quote Originally Posted by Bodhi108 View Post
    Nuke a unborn gay whale for Christ.
    I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out.
    BILL HICKS,
    1961-1994
  9. glad2bhere is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2007 6:20pm


     Style: Yon Mu Kwan Hapkido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by BackFistMonkey
    Martial Arts should be about fighting and controlling your target everything else is superfluous and ego driven , smiling happy glad hands , bullshit .

    TMAs were originally created for the same purpose and had training methods similiar to todays Combat Sports ( tons of live resistant training ) . The only goals were to fight , learn , record , teach and pass on techniques and methodologies that worked .

    Unfortunately they failed completely and we are left with schools that are full of LARPers , fakes , not to mention the : untested , out of shape , men and women with Dan ranks around their waist who think they are deadly killing machines .
    Unfortunately, Backfist I have to defer to your better store of information. For my part I can't really speak to what "should" and "should not" be. I understand the nature of martial training only as far as I have experienced it myself and have researched further. My experience both in and out of the US military does not seem to have been the same as yours, but different people walk away from war-time experiences with different opinions, yes?

    As far as what TMA were created for I can only go on history back to about the 12th Century in Korea. Before that there is the SAM KUK YUSA and thats about it. I know that the development and protection of "fighting spirit" was cited by SUN TSU, and echoed in the O-GAE by WON HYO. I know that down through the centuries people such as the Crusaders, Bushi, Massai and just about every other recognized martial organization did fight-- but according to a code, which, of course, is what separates a simple "fighter" from a "warrior". Maybe this is also where we differ. I just don't know you well enough to say for sure.

    As far as whether TMA have "failed" I suppose thats for people in the future to look back on with the fabled 20/20 hindsight, yes? I'm sure there are folks who consider the Vietnam War to be representative of the failure of martial spirit. Today I hear much the same being said of the Iraqi conflict now that the dramatic "shock-&-awe" phase is over and we have been reduced to a "policing action". Whatever the modern schools are "full of" I can't say since I have not visited all schools at all time and in all places. What I know is that most of the folks I have met have given-in to "easy, quick and cheap" and one cannot blame them for being human. When I came home, I was stunned to find-out that despite the rhtoric and the parades the folks came back from Canada to well-connected jobs while I waited on tables. Now, I understand that the Iraqi vets are starting to get some of the same treatment. What are we going to do shoot every high-toned hypocrit from Maine to San Diego? I, myself, can't see doing that but like the commercial says, "you're mileage may vary", right?

    Best Wishes,

    Bruce
    Last edited by glad2bhere; 2/14/2007 6:22pm at .
  10. G-low is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/14/2007 9:00pm


     Style: Karazy

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In reality a code is just a fancy way of saying a set of rules. Combat sports nowadays also fight with rules (i.e. no groin shots, stop when the ref. steps in.... etc.). So would that mean they are warriors also and not "simple fighters", yes?

    Many people try to degrade combat sports as if they are not an expression of the re4l essence of martial arts. You said yourself

    Quote Originally Posted by glad2bhere
    I know that down through the centuries people such as the Crusaders, Bushi, Massai and just about every other recognized martial organization did fight
    With that said only people that do fight are carrying on the essence of martial arts. Therefore, I would have to say yes, to the fact that most TMA schools have failed, right?

    P.S. To keep this on topic, to reverse their failure they need to start fighting, or at least conduct some realistic sparring.
    Last edited by G-low; 2/14/2007 9:10pm at .
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