Can arts like KukSool, HapKiDo, HwarangDo, etc. be saved?

**Wolf** · Posted On: 2/09/2007 8:16am

Originally Posted by kwoww

The thing is, it can still be a "family martial art." Just because the training is live doesn't mean it has to be unfriendly. Maybe having separate sparring and technique classes might do the trick.

The thing is sparring is absolutely ESSENTIAL to having a useful curriculum. If someone doesn't spar they'll never understand the kind of speed and timing it takes to make something work in a real confrontation. I agree it can also still be a family martial art, but it can't be a daycare. If you're going to teach kids, teach them something they can use instead of a bunch of complicated locking techniques that they'll never be able to firmly grasp. Perhaps give them an understanding of position and escape in all situations as well as simple techniques to achieve it.

Originally Posted by biomed190

One thing though you can't force some people to spar real hard some people are not into it I have noticed. With those people I just go moderate and let them enjoy it at their own pace.

As long as there is sparring and it eventually gets to moderate contact, that's fine. It's just time to be done with tip-tap point-stop sparring.

**glad2bhere** · Posted On: 2/09/2007 8:19am

Dear Folks:

I wish there was just a single cure for getting people to train harder but the fact is that there are more than a few variable, only a few of which have anything to do with traditional arts.

I think, first and foremost is the matter of revenues.
In order to make money in the MA one has to attract a lot of people and get them to stay for a long period of time. It does not matter what the art is. getting people to come in the first place and then stay for a long period is the trick.

Second to point one is that most people are not attracted to martial arts. They are attracted to their idea or image of MA. In order to attract people and get them to stay its not a matter of giving them what is real, but rather what they think MA is about. The trouble starts the minute a person says, "I want this" and the teacher has to tell them that real MA is something else.

Now, in fairness we can break the population into two classes of practitioners. One group are the conditioning and health nuts who see MA as essentially "gymnastics". Nothing wrong with that. The other group are folks who see MA as combat. Nothing wrong with that either. The trouble starts when a person actually wants one thing and gets the other.

Can KMA be saved? I don't hold much hope for it. Its a schizophrenic situation. People present themselves saying they want traditional MA and when they find out it is long hours of conditioning, drills, contact, bruises, frustration and little personal regard they leave to someplace that offers a version which may not be combat-worthy, but is much more glitzy, slick and pop. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

**BackFistMonkey** · Posted On: 2/13/2007 6:01am

Originally Posted by Wolf

Basically these arts originally tried very hard to do what MMA has accomplished today. Unfortunatly the lack of sparring with any sort of contact or live resistive application of techniques has killed the practicality of these arts. My suggestions...
1) Pare down the curriculum by getting rid of the totally impractical techs
2) At higher belt levels increase contact in sparring and allow throws/takedowns/joint locks
3) Include a live sparring component to advanced belt tests. You don't fight well, you don't promote.
4) The weapons study can remain as long as it doesn't preclude the above.

My thoughts on the four points you made , keep in mind I have NO experience with HRD or KSW...

1. This will happen on it's very own in time given that hard contact , continuous sparring in all ranges is implemented .
2. Have everyone sparring and rolling at some level from day one .
3. Live tests from first belt on , if you insist on keeping a belt system
4. I like the short stick and cane work from HKD . It can stay if it is trained alive and you end up on the ground at the end .

So it looks to me that Hapkido might be saved ... people will just have to stop being pussies and train .

Originally Posted by glad2bhere

I think, first and foremost is the matter of revenues.
In order to make money in the MA one has to attract a lot of people and get them to stay for a long period of time. It does not matter what the art is. getting people to come in the first place and then stay for a long period is the trick.

Why do I get the impression me and you are not going to get along ?

**glad2bhere** · Posted On: 2/13/2007 7:22am

Originally Posted by BackFistMonkey

Why do I get the impression me and you are not going to get along ?

I have no idea. I don't "make the news; I just report it." If I had my way the Hapkido arts would be less like the common TKD school and more like the traditional Muay Thai camps in Thailand. If I had my way the content and training in the Hapkido arts would be more along the lines of Chinese San Shou that Japanese Aikido. But, again, thats just me. Hapkido is incredibly misunderstood and I think that is a direct result of what commonly passes for Hapkido art and Hapkido training. Though I risk getting flamed by a huge part of the Hapkido community IMVHO I think the Hapkido arts were dealt a terrible blow by the efforts of MYONG Jae Nam to draw Hapkido and the Japanese Aikido community together. Many Hapkido practitioners, especially among the IHF have been using Japanese terminology, Japanese philosophy, and even Japanese cosmology ever since. Then, when a Hapkidoist gets much of the same results in combat as do the later Aikido traditions, only then does he begin to wonder what happened to the combat-worthy material of Early Choi traditions.

As long as I am on a roll let me add something else. There are a great many "thespians" in the Hapkido community. They like to dress-up and pantomine some pretty nasty techniques. However, it takes a level of commitment to be willing to actually USE the technique, if you know what I mean. I see this as something like those Karate people who practice thousamds of punches to the air, and "pull" their punches when the technique is needed. It makes no sense to practice strikes meant to blind, deafen and choke a person if one is unwilling to use such techniques when circumstances dictate. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

**BackFistMonkey** · Posted On: 2/13/2007 7:40am

Using the Japanese ( or correct or even original as some would call it ) terms is not a bad thing . I feel as if it is good step in the direction of cleaning up the KMA scene , by claiming the roots of the Styles correctly .

The biggest problems I have are the training methods . Which according to my studies have sucked since the style left Korea and one of the founders was connected with an assassination .

Originally Posted by Bruce

There are a great many "thespians" in the Hapkido community. They like to dress-up and pantomine some pretty nasty techniques. However, it takes a level of commitment to be willing to actually USE the technique, if you know what I mean. I see this as something like those Karate people who practice thousamds of punches to the air, and "pull" their punches when the technique is needed. It makes no sense to practice strikes meant to blind, deafen and choke a person if one is unwilling to use such techniques when circumstances dictate. Thoughts?

Those are what are called "LARP'ers" around here . Live Action Role Players , a very fitting and accurate term if you ask me . It isn't their lack of will to use the techniques that worries me .

It is their ignorance of the fact that most of them could not stop me from taking their belts from around their tubby bellies in front of their class , much less get me into a position where they could make use of their supposedly deadly , crippling , and maiming techniques .

**glad2bhere** · Posted On: 2/13/2007 9:49am

Originally Posted by BackFistMonkey

Using the Japanese ( or correct or even original as some would call it ) terms is not a bad thing . I feel as if it is good step in the direction of cleaning up the KMA scene , by claiming the roots of the Styles correctly .

The biggest problems I have are the training methods . Which according to my studies have sucked since the style left Korea and one of the founders was connected with an assassination .

Those are what are called "LARP'ers" around here . Live Action Role Players , a very fitting and accurate term if you ask me . It isn't their lack of will to use the techniques that worries me .

It is their ignorance of the fact that most of them could not stop me from taking their belts from around their tubby bellies in front of their class , much less get me into a position where they could make use of their supposedly deadly , crippling , and maiming techniques .

"Thespians"? "LARP"-s ? I guess I will never know for sure. I'd have to have a window into some guy's heart to know what goes on there, yes?

What I DO know is that at least once a semester, one of my students will come back to class with a "hang-dog" look on his face and report that what he had been practicing in class "don't work". When I ask him about the circumstances, its usually some party where it "slipped out" (read also: "I was trying to impress my friends") that said student was taking Hapkido. Inevitably the student is goaded into showing what he knows and the person is essentially embarrassed in front of his friends because the technique fails to have the desired result. When I ask if he did it as he trained in class, without exception the answer is, "well, no. I didn't want to HURT the guy." Sheesh!

Hapkido has developed a kind of reputation, as has Aikido, where somehow, magically, a person can dominate another person without inflicting injury. Historically the Hapkido arts were never intended in this fashion, but the modern world just doesn't seem to handle the potential liability very well. For instance, many, many of the throws, locks and projections have all had their execution expanded so that damage is not localized and pain is spread over a larger area. Weapons are practically never taught, or are taught for their novelty value. Some weapons are not even Korean! There are even acrobatic things that have been added (not altogether unlike Chinese WU SHU material) that are just plain down-right silly. Original Hapkido is not popular because, as one person told me to my face, "its too primitive.... too basic". Sorry about that, but this is where I have real issues with the commercial aspect of the Hapkido community.

Sorry about the mini-rant but not all Hapkido is created equal. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce

**BackFistMonkey** · Posted On: 2/13/2007 10:01am

Sounds like your students need to spar , hard , and often to know their limits and the limits of the average human body .

Should fix most of your complaints .

and none of the techniques I was taught in Hapkido are more dangerous than what a person who spent a year in BJJ or MT knows .When people who know nothing want me to show them Martial Arts ... I simply began showing the boring and detailed process of throwing a jab/cross . If they want to spar , wrestle , roll , or do some slap boxing ... COOL I am all about live friendly practice .

Most the time when people speak of not sparring because it is "too deadly" ... they are clueless and/or full of **** .

**glad2bhere** · Posted On: 2/13/2007 10:43am

Originally Posted by BackFistMonkey

Sounds like your students need to spar , hard , and often to know their limits and the limits of the average human body .

Should fix most of your complaints .

and none of the techniques I was taught in Hapkido are more dangerous than what a person who spent a year in BJJ or MT knows .When people who know nothing want me to show them Martial Arts ... I simply began showing the boring and detailed process of throwing a jab/cross . If they want to spar , wrestle , roll , or do some slap boxing ... COOL I am all about live friendly practice .

Most the time when people speak of not sparring because it is "too deadly" ... they are clueless and/or full of **** .

I used to agree with your assessment but have come to find that there is just a little bit more going on than simply saying someone is "F-O-S." Here are some of the variables I have uncovered in my time in Hapkido.

a.) The teacher and/or school owner panders to the illusions that applicants have about what MA are and what they are not. In return, the school owner gets increased stability to his income. If he starts presenting MA the way they really are, some students will stay, but most will quit.

b.) Students want teachers/school owners that might teach them MA but more likely will pander to their illusions of what MA are. The student will pay his money done to a teacher who presents MA the way the student "thinks" it is and not necessarily the way it really is. If the work gets too hard, too uncomfotable or too different from the student's fantasies, he wil "vote with his feet".

c.) Teachers/School owners do not want anymore liability than is absolutely necessary. For this reason they will change execution, alter curriculum and even withdraw from organizations and affiliations if it means they can have more students doing less rigorous requirements.

d.) More and more applicants do not want to take responsibility for their decisions. If they can make a bad decision such as applying to a school where the demands are too great, they will. But when the inevitable injury comes along they will lay that on the school and the teacher instead of covering the damages themselves. The result is that most applicants in a certain socio-economic bracket will sue at the drop of a hat. Once again, there are simply not enough responsible students to keep a typical school open.

e.) Most MA teachers and practiioners are full of-- for want of another term---- what I call "Cheer-leader speak". Their rhetoric is constantly writing checks that their realities can't cash. For instance, many MA are very big on "Character Development", but invariably have folks who "would steal the pennies off a dead man's eyes", as the saying goes.
And there are plenty of students who are constantly promising ever greater amounts of participation and study while barely keeping up with the minimums.

Now I appreciate that these five points are pretty much just people being people--- Human Beings being what they are. It would, I think, do us all a big fat favor if at least half of these folks would quit blowing smoke up everyone's pants-leg. I would much rather see a small group of dedicated practitioners who truely did what they said, than the army of wannabees trying to convince others of something they don't believe themselves, yes? Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce

**shinbushi** · Posted On: 2/13/2007 1:37pm

Originally Posted by glad2bhere

a.) The teacher and/or school owner panders to the illusions that applicants have about what MA are and what they are not. In return, the school owner gets increased stability to his income. If he starts presenting MA the way they really are, some students will stay, but most will quit.

I think this is a MCDojo cop out. If you train progressively people will stay for awhile.
Eventually EVERYONE leaves your dojo, if nothing else to open a school / club of their own. Done correctly you can have aliveness and students. Maybe not 1000 and 3 branches but you can make a decent living.

**glad2bhere** · Posted On: 2/13/2007 4:03pm

Originally Posted by shinbushi

I think this is a MCDojo cop out. If you train progressively people will stay for awhile.
Eventually EVERYONE leaves your dojo, if nothing else to open a school / club of their own. Done correctly you can have aliveness and students. Maybe not 1000 and 3 branches but you can make a decent living.

I don't know; you may be right. All I know is that I have not seen it myself. What I have seen is people come and people go. The students who get pandered to seem to stay longer than the students who don't. After a while, the school owner is giving out whatever the students are asking for in order to keep the lights on. There are TKD schools that teach nunchuka, and TSD schools that teach escrima and Karate schools that stir in Aikido and Judo--- all in the name of giving the consumer what they think they want. If we were talking about a Boxing gym or Wrestling gym maybe this wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately teaching MA also includes some cultural, ethical and moral imperatives. Thats what makes it a MA, plain and simple. The question for this thread is "can arts like KUKSOOL etc etc be saved". I guess my answer is a qualified "yes" but not as large mills which constantly defer to the public. Thoughts?

Best Wishes,

Bruce