Can arts like KukSool, HapKiDo, HwarangDo, etc. be saved?

[Miguksaram]

As some of you know my background lies in Kuk Sool. I still like to believe that this art has it's application, but like so many KMA's it has become a system that is almost completely trained in a dead manner. From what I've seen HKD and HRD are both very similar and suffer from basically the same issues. These are the pros and cons of the systems as I see them.

Check out DeAlba Systems Modern Farang Mu Sul.

He is has ranking in both KSW and HRD. He trains and teaches both tradional as well as modern techniques using this systems as his base. It can be done, but there is more profit in shoveling bullshit than truth.

[Wolf]

Point 2

Why at higher belts, why not focus early on at haveing people spar with throws and take downs from the get go.

O'soto geri and ich ashi bari are two easy take downs that white belts can learn and perform with relative saftey

Also in Goju-jitsu all belt tests have a sparring and grappling component, You don't have to win but show that you can at least try and apply the appropriate techniques for your level. So why wait for higher belts.

Again it doesn't have to be full / hard contact from the get go, but some continous sparring should be part of testing from the beginning IMO

I guess what I meant was using it at higher belts during the transition. Once the kinks get ironed out I would gradually start working it down the belt scale. Eventually I would see it as (using KS belt system average to black is currently 4 years, might increase that)...

white belt: light contact, no head kicks, no takedown sparring
yellow: light contact, no head kicks, basic throws and takedowns, and a little ground (mostly positional)
blue: medium contact, full body contact, throws, takedowns, full submissions
red: hard contact (basically full mma)
brown and up: perfect technique

I would also hold off on all weapons introduction until brown belt as I think the more practical stuff is the most important part.

[Wolf]

There cerainly is hope (though KSW and HwrangDo are complete fabrications and the same thing as hapkido anyway). The pro-hapkido circuit demonstrates that. If those tournaments become more common (and more open to other styles, last I looked you had to be a HKD blackbelt) the wheat will start to get seperated from the **** (or however that saying goes).

Right now there are a few schools that seem to do things right but I've seen nothing to indicate they're becoming more common or are common at all.

KSW and HRD histories are defintily fabricated, but they aren't identical to HKD. They've both grown in slightly different directions. However, yes, they are similar enough. That's why I grouped it all together. I would totally like to see Pro-HKD opened up a bit for related styles. At the very least I think the current KS tournaments should be modified to include a Pro-HKD like fighting division at the blackbelt level.

edit:

Check out DeAlba Systems Modern Farang Mu Sul.

He is has ranking in both KSW and HRD. He trains and teaches both tradional as well as modern techniques using this systems as his base. It can be done, but there is more profit in shoveling bullshit than truth.

I've heard of this, but haven't actually checked it out. I'll do that.

[UpaLumpa]

Why only the blackbelt level?

[Wolf]

Just to get the ball rolling. In the current state of things you wouldn't want to see any underbelts doing this kind of fighting. Then as the system grew stronger I'd see this kind of division in the lower belts.

[kwoww]

There is one problem with all of these very good ideas: other people. They just don't want to actually have to train hard in order to say that they're a black belt.

But it has got me thinking... if someone manages to fix HKD, then maybe even worse-afflicted styles like TKD can be fixed as well.

[Wolf]

Yeah. Right now this is all theoretical. I think what it's going to take is, like was mentioned earlier, someone starting their own Kuk Sool/HKD/Whatever school around these precepts and trying to grow it. I, personally, don't see the WKSA ever instituting the above mentioned changes because they pride themselves on being a "Family Martial Art," which is all well and good except that the majority of people aren't gaining the abilities they think they are.

[UpaLumpa]

There is one problem with all of these very good ideas: other people. They just don't want to actually have to train hard in order to say that they're a black belt.

Hence my comment about the need for internal pressure.

[kwoww]

Yeah. Right now this is all theoretical. I think what it's going to take is, like was mentioned earlier, someone starting their own Kuk Sool/HKD/Whatever school around these precepts and trying to grow it. I, personally, don't see the WKSA ever instituting the above mentioned changes because they pride themselves on being a "Family Martial Art," which is all well and good except that the majority of people aren't gaining the abilities they think they are.

The thing is, it can still be a "family martial art." Just because the training is live doesn't mean it has to be unfriendly. Maybe having separate sparring and technique classes might do the trick.

[biomed190]

A lot of good ideas listed here. At my school The Higher belts go easy on the white and yellow belts but If they want to throw on some headgear and they have a mouthpiece we will go full contact. There is a guy who comes to class who is a yellow belt but amateur boxed so we always go hard. One thing though you can't force some people to spar real hard some people are not into it I have noticed. With those people I just go moderate and let them enjoy it at their own pace.