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  1. Plasma is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 12:47pm

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     Style: 柔術

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz
    That being said Hatsumi inherited from Takamatsu the Kukishinden Happo Bikenjutsu lineage that includes the Ryusen no Maki densho dealing with that ryu's ninjutsu. According to Shoto Tanemura (Tatara Vol 1 Issue 1 pg. 6) bares a close relationship to the Togakure Ryu Densho. In the same interview Tanemura suggests that Takamatsu had considered generating a Kukishinden Ninpo in the 1950s but as his relationship with the Kuki Family cooled he never did it. No independent sources for this later claim have been presented.
    I heard this as well. That Togakure-ryu was orginally was Kukishin-ryu ninpo with additions by Takamatsu. This is why the Togakure-ryu shaken is identical to the Kukishin-ryu shaken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz
    Considering how small a ryu Togakure actually is (roughly 18 waza for the Taijutsu component and 17 for the Kenjutsu component) it frankly seems odd to me to think of it as having been constructed whole cloth by Takamatsu. I'd expect something more elaborate. In general I prefer Tanemura's and others' suggestion that Takamatsu probably consolidated and systematized what ninjutsu material he had learned through personal experience and research rather then simply inventing the Ninpo Ryuha outright.
    Quote Originally Posted by Muqatil
    What's your source/evidence for this? I have never heard ANY claim like that from Hatsumi-Sensei, or any quotes attributed to Takamatsu-Sensei like that.
    I'll have to get my hands on the Takamastu biography (I think written by Ueno) again. I remember alot of the stuff was in there, but its been 3 or so years since I've seen it.
  2. shmuel is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 1:10pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    In general I prefer Tanemura's and others' suggestion that Takamatsu probably consolidated and systematized what ninjutsu material he had learned through personal experience and research rather then simply inventing the Ninpo Ryuha outright.
    Yes; this makes sense to me as well.

    But if that is what happened, then where does that leave Toda (Takamatsu's supposed Togakure teacher?)
  3. Plasma is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 1:16pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by shmuel
    Yes; this makes sense to me as well.

    But if that is what happened, then where does that leave Toda (Takamatsu's supposed Togakure teacher?)

    Kuden (Oral) Techings as well as some techniques, however, it most likely wasn't taught as "Here is the denso for Togakure-ryu" you are now the Grandmaster.
  4. Fitz is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 2:04pm


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjew
    Kuden (Oral) Techings as well as some techniques, however, it most likely wasn't taught as "Here is the denso for Togakure-ryu" you are now the Grandmaster.
    My guess is it was probably an add-on to the other materials he taught Takamatsu. Elements of Togakure Ryu seem to progress with some logic from the Gyokko/Koto mixture as a kind of "How do get the **** out of this?"

    Since it is likely to come up Toda is said to have been the man that Takamatsu learned Shindenfudo Ryu, Gyokko Ryu and its derivative art Gyukushin ryu, Koto Ryu and three Ninpo ryuha. Takamastu's later teacher, Ishitani Matsutaro, is the one who contributed the Gikan ryu, Kukishinden and Takagi Yoshin Ryu to his training.
  5. Fitz is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 2:08pm


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

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    Mark,

    If you're going to go pulling stuff from websites at least put the link at the front as a citation.

    at the moment I'm assuming you cribbed your post from

    http://www.geocities.com/remipulwer/...gakureRyu.html
  6. shmuel is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 2:41pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark2001
    The 32nd Soke of Togakure Ryu, Shinryuken Masamitsu Toda, was the sword instructor for the Tokugawa Shogunate in the mid 19th century. l
    Is there any actual proof of this?
  7. Mark2001 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 2:44pm


     

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    dont know just trying to help let find the page again


    Senseless posts will get you banned from this forum, Straighten up or get banned. Only Warning.

    -The Fucking Ninjew
    Last edited by Plasma; 2/21/2007 3:30pm at .
  8. Plasma is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 2:53pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark2001
    dont know just trying to help let find the page again
    First :englishmo

    Second, are you saying you jumped into a conversion with your only knowing being a copy & paste from google?

    Damn, you are worthless.
  9. Mark2001 is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 3:33pm


     

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    I heard this as well. That Togakure-ryu was orginally was Kukishin-ryu ninpo with additions by Takamatsu. This is why the Togakure-ryu shaken is identical to the Kukishin-ryu shaken well Ninjew you are right but dont forget the budo taijutsu is made of 9 schools but 3 our ninjutsu so if you want to learn the about the past of it you have to cut off 6 of them cuz dont forget that hutsami put the nine together to form Budo taijutsu and let me say this your going clown on me for this to right ninjew.
  10. Fitz is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 4:20pm


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I wonder to some extent if the shaken issue is more one of practicality and convergent development. The four point style shaken, in either the Koto or Kukishin/Togakure style, may simply have better functionality then the more elaborate styles both in terms of user saftey, sucessful throwing and the like. It would actually be a really interesting "Comsumer Digest" style investigation of various shapes/styles and their usability.

    Now if only we knew of some Japanese cultural society for a research grant or a weapons magazine willing to fund an article.
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