228280 Bullies, 4788 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 41 to 50 of 130
Page 5 of 13 FirstFirst 12345 6789 ... LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. Plasma is offline
    Plasma's Avatar

    Bullshido Admin

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    7,088

    Posted On:
    2/13/2007 3:17pm

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: 柔術

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by nterry
    There is a section of Hatsumi's SFR video that's titled dakentaijutsu. I never really though about whether it was official somehow or not. I can't find any listings of SFR-daken waza though...you're probably right, it's just a heading in the videos to be descriptive.

    There is a branch of Shinden Fudo-ryu that uses the term Dakentaijutsu , not Koto-ryu though.

    Quote Originally Posted by nterry
    Also, I've always heard koppojutsu and koshijutsu used somewhat generically, referring to strikes to the opponent's bone/structure or soft tissue/muscle respectively. Is that others' experience as well?

    The term Koshi and Koppo that uses in quite a few Ryu-Ha to describe their unarmed combat. It depends on the system how they are used.

    Quote Originally Posted by nterry
    Correct. I don't know why I typed Hatsumi...just had him on the brain or something. Takamatsu was given Menkyo Kaiden (full mastership) of Shinden Fudo Ryu when he was only 13.
    True, but not really that special, givent he time period.
    Quote Originally Posted by nterry
    There was a newspaper article from the day that described a fight he had where he supposedly beat a 60 person gang that attacked him. Crazy stuff.
    Source please.



    Quote Originally Posted by nterry
    http://www.mbdojo.com/shindenfudo.htm

    This info comes from the book by Paul Richardson (there's a small credit at the bottom.) I'll have to investigate down that road to find out where he got his info from.

    The Wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinden_Fudo_Ryu gives credit to Tameyoshi, but unfortunately only cites "Bujinkan legend" as it's source, so it'll be hard to verify. Is this the guy you were talking about?

    *More of the same: http://www.shinobi.org/gambatte/shindenfudouryuu.pdf This does make mention of this Izumo cat that fled to Iga because he lost a fight though.

    I believe you are confusing origin legends. Gyokko Ryu has the Chinese origin (one the rare Japanese Ko Ryu that does).
  2. nterry is offline

    Featherweight

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Evansville, IN
    Posts
    18

    Posted On:
    2/13/2007 4:36pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Taijutsu, BJJ, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This is about all I've ever found when I've looked for the actual article. (Not necessarily this link, but this info, over and over.)
    http://www.geocities.com/bnyd/page3.html
    This one seems much more plausible though, with the claim that he beat only eight of them (using a rock) and the rest took off.

    I'm still digging on SFR though. All links I find point to Izumo, but never cite the source. Here's another: http://www.ninjutsu.co.il/wiki/index.php/Fudo_ryu
    Such is the nature of the internet though. It's been a while since I've seriously researched the histories of the schools, things are apparently a bit hazy. I have a feeling I'm going to be busting out my library card before this thread dies, lol.
  3. shmuel is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    337

    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 6:20am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Togakure-ryu & Kumogakure-ryu & Gyokushin-ryu

    Ninjutsu Ryu-Ha that are NOT Ko-ryu they are gendai budo that are basis of them are older scrolls and technique salavaged through research primarily. The oldest which was created by Takamatsu in the 50s. The other 2 have no record past Hatsumi.



    Do you all think Hatsumi still believes that Togakure Ryu that he inherited from Takamatsu was genuine? Or has he silently accepted that Takamatsu created it?

    I can understand how, in the beginning, as an impressionable young man in his late 20s, he would probably have believed Takamatsu when he said it was a genuine lineage with 33 generations.

    But how about now?
    Last edited by shmuel; 2/21/2007 6:24am at .
  4. Plasma is offline
    Plasma's Avatar

    Bullshido Admin

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    7,088

    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 7:59am

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: 柔術

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by shmuel




    Do you all think Hatsumi still believes that Togakure Ryu that he inherited from Takamatsu was genuine? Or has he silently accepted that Takamatsu created it?




    I can understand how, in the beginning, as an impressionable young man in his late 20s, he would probably have believed Takamatsu when he said it was a genuine lineage with 33 generations.

    But how about now?
    I don't think Takamatsu ever claimed it was a 34 generation ryu-ha. He has come out and said that Togakure-ryu is a collection of older ninjutsu technique he collected from scrolls and various ryu-ha.

    Its Hatsumi and the "Ninja boom" where the 34 gernations came it and they was probably only to make $$ from silly Westerners.
  5. Fitz is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    875

    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 8:55am


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One thing to consider is that Hatsumi has considerably more documentation, writing and personal exchanges from Takamatsu available to him then we do. This is often presented as a cop out by some reflexive Bujinkan defenders but there is a certain amount of truth to it. Personally I hope Hatsumi becomes more open with what he has from Takamatsu as he gets older but while he can still provide the stories and background of how he acquired it.

    That being said Hatsumi inherited from Takamatsu the Kukishinden Happo Bikenjutsu lineage that includes the Ryusen no Maki densho dealing with that ryu's ninjutsu. According to Shoto Tanemura (Tatara Vol 1 Issue 1 pg. 6) bares a close relationship to the Togakure Ryu Densho. In the same interview Tanemura suggests that Takamatsu had considered generating a Kukishinden Ninpo in the 1950s but as his relationship with the Kuki Family cooled he never did it. No independent sources for this later claim have been presented.

    Considering how small a ryu Togakure actually is (roughly 18 waza for the Taijutsu component and 17 for the Kenjutsu component) it frankly seems odd to me to think of it as having been constructed whole cloth by Takamatsu. I'd expect something more elaborate. In general I prefer Tanemura's and others' suggestion that Takamatsu probably consolidated and systematized what ninjutsu material he had learned through personal experience and research rather then simply inventing the Ninpo Ryuha outright.
  6. Muqatil is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    East coast
    Posts
    656

    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 9:00am


     Style: BBT/Flinging poo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjew
    I don't think Takamatsu ever claimed it was a 34 generation ryu-ha. He has come out and said that Togakure-ryu is a collection of older ninjutsu technique he collected from scrolls and various ryu-ha.

    What's your source/evidence for this? I have never heard ANY claim like that from Hatsumi-Sensei, or any quotes attributed to Takamatsu-Sensei like that.
  7. Fitz is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    875

    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 9:20am


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjew
    I don't think Takamatsu ever claimed it was a 34 generation ryu-ha. He has come out and said that Togakure-ryu is a collection of older ninjutsu technique he collected from scrolls and various ryu-ha.

    Its Hatsumi and the "Ninja boom" where the 34 gernations came it and they was probably only to make $$ from silly Westerners.
    The lineage for Togakure Ryu, which was published in Bugei Ryűha Daijiten, outlining the 33 previous Soke comes from Takamastu himself, not from Hatsumi. Interestingly some portions of Takamatsu's stories that he claimed were kuden from Toda on Togakure Ryu were verified by independent historian Koyama Ryutaro and in more recent times Kacem Zoughari has claimed to have found reference to figures in the Togakure Ryu lineage that are both independent of Takamatsu and which seem to have been unknown to him.

    The "ninja boom" cash in wasn't really Hatsumi's action. Stephen Hayes was the one who did nearly all of the marketing for the Bujinkan outside of Japan and was the one who went to great pains to put the emphasis on the Ninja elements of the Takamatsuden. Before Hayes entered the picture it was just Hatsumi and a small training group with some of his non-Japanese students similarly making their own small training groups. Hayes went a different way, setting up seminars internationally and training groups being run by people with only the most minimal of exposures to the Takamastsuden arts. He was also the one who put the emphasis upon seeing the Bujinkan as an "esoteric" martial art which was part of an underground Japanese counter culture playing into the mind set of the time that also lead to the rise of the 1980s variation of the New Age movement. He had a good eye for what would catch on with people then, something his current "DVD Distance Learning" meets Tibetan Buddhism approach lacks now.

    Hatsumi never stopped Hayes and certainly reaped rewards for allowing him to do what he did. He's also been dealing with the fall out from it ever since, slowing things down and having to compensate for a lot of casual students. I think things would have been considerably different if Hatsumi had sent a few of his senior people to live overseas and teach his arts rather then letting someone who was unqualified as a teacher market the art internationally, but that's from a view 20+ years on from when such things would have been an option.
  8. shmuel is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    337

    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 11:59am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz
    The "ninja boom" cash in wasn't really Hatsumi's action. Stephen Hayes was the one who did nearly all of the marketing for the Bujinkan outside of Japan and was the one who went to great pains to put the emphasis on the Ninja elements of the Takamatsuden. .
    What about the 1960s Ninja Boom in Japan though? There is a lot of material from the 60s and 70s that well predates Hayes, but still plays up the ninja image dramatically.
  9. Fitz is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Brooklyn, NY
    Posts
    875

    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 12:26pm


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by shmuel
    What about the 1960s Ninja Boom in Japan though? There is a lot of material from the 60s and 70s that well predates Hayes, but still plays up the ninja image dramatically.
    Oh sure, but neither Takamatsu nor Hatsumi profited much from that phenomena and neither had anything to do with it starting. Aside from "Shinobi no Mono," Hatsumi's brief meeting with the crew for "You only Live Twice" and a few journalists and historians conducting interviews there wasn't much of a connection with the Takamatsuden. The Japanese Ninja boom of that time had more to do with popular culture and the impact of "The Samurai" television show and other media appearances of Ninjas at that time.
  10. shmuel is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    337

    Posted On:
    2/21/2007 12:37pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz
    Oh sure, but neither Takamatsu nor Hatsumi profited much from that phenomena and neither had anything to do with it starting. Aside from "Shinobi no Mono," Hatsumi's brief meeting with the crew for "You only Live Twice" and a few journalists and historians conducting interviews there wasn't much of a connection with the Takamatsuden. The Japanese Ninja boom of that time had more to do with popular culture and the impact of "The Samurai" television show and other media appearances of Ninjas at that time.
    There was that 1970s film that you can find floating around on youtube. That shows Hatsumi and his MIB (young Manaka, Tanemura and others) doing the stereotypical ninja stuff. Black uniforms and masks, running up trees, jumping backwards into trees, blinding powder, shuko it's all there. Also, don't forget the Andy Adams book, as well as Hatsumi's Ninja Ninpo Gaho book from 1964. So I think it''s safe to say that they were actually into the whole ninja thing before SKH and the 1980s came along.

    I still believe that Hatsumi probably originally did buy what Takamatsu told him about the Togakure Ryu. I mean, when you are in your 20s and have found the teacher you have been searching for your whole life and who dazzles you with his ability, why wouldn't you believe him? But now, I would be very surprised if Hatsumi still believes it deep down.
    Last edited by shmuel; 2/21/2007 12:43pm at .
Page 5 of 13 FirstFirst 12345 6789 ... LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.