Bujinkan lineage: fact or fiction, somewhere inbetween?

[Plasma]

[Edit to stay on Topic: Is this Tech considered Kosher by our Ninja staff? And... hmm.... YEAH! Would this be found in either Gyokko or Koto Ryu? or is it totally gendai?

The Older name (at least in Jujutsu Ryu-Ha I do) for the "Kimura Lock" or Kudari Ude Garami is Gyaku Oni Kudaki. Oni Kudaki I've seen done in hte Kukishinden ryu and Takagi Yoshin ryu, aka the Jujutsu ryu-ha. Gyokko-ryu and Koto-ryu are primarily striking schools (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...36&postcount=2) Gyokko Ryu grappling is more geared to locking a person down as you strike them and Koto-ryu grappling is more to do with throwing people on their heads. Neither have the Judo-like submissions.

[Antifa]

Lol, real Nin-Jew: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UinLk4yIxNQ&NR

Please keep in mind when you laugh at that dude that he is one of the last Jews in Germany.

Check another of his vids here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iy_E...elated&search=

[WorldWarCheese]

The Older name (at least in Jujutsu Ryu-Ha I do) for the "Kimura Lock" or Kudari Ude Garami is Gyaku Oni Kudaki. Oni Kudaki I've seen done in hte Kukishinden ryu and Takagi Yoshin ryu, aka the Jujutsu ryu-ha. Gyokko-ryu and Koto-ryu are primarily striking schools (http://www.bullshido.net/forums/show...36&postcount=2) Gyokko Ryu grappling is more geared to locking a person down as you strike them and Koto-ryu grappling is more to do with throwing people on their heads. Neither have the Judo-like submissions.

I find that really interesting how a JU art focuses more on striking than anything else. I'm confused now. Tell me if this fits the parameters of the thread, I'm not positive if it does or not. If not I'll make a new thread.

[nterry]

Koto Ryu Dakentaijutsu and Shinden Fudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu are good places to start. SFR was Hatsumi's first school, btw. It has it's roots in Chinese boxing that go waaaay back.

[Plasma]

Koto Ryu Dakentaijutsu

Koto-ryu calls its Taijutsu, Koppojutsu. There is no Koto ryu Daken, as least not in any lineage I know of.

and Shinden Fudo Ryu Dakentaijutsu are good places to start. SFR was Hatsumi's first school, btw.

It was Takamatsu's first school, Hatsumi was a Judo-ka.

It has it's roots in Chinese boxing that go waaaay back.

Source please. The origin story I learned for Shinden Fudo ryu was a Japanese warrior who lost a challenge match, when into the mountains and starved himself to gain "enlightment" then coming back and winning against the same opponent.

Gyokko-ryu lineage is in Chinese Boxing.

[Antifa]

Gyokko-ryu lineage is in Chinese Boxing.

Please tell me more

[Plasma]

Please tell me more

The origin story of Gyokko-ryu is that the organized Ryu-ha grew out of a fallen general/monk ( that part keeps changing everytime I hear it) called Gyokko fled to Japan and started teaching martial arts. Gyokko-ryu was formed from that 300 years later.

Take it from what is it worth, but as origin stories go this isn't too far fetched.

[Antifa]

The origin story of Gyokko-ryu is that the organized Ryu-ha grew out of a fallen general/monk ( that part keeps changing everytime I hear it) called Gyokko fled to Japan and started teaching martial arts. Gyokko-ryu was formed from that 300 years later.

Take it from what is it worth, but as origin stories go this isn't too far fetched.

What Chinese influences do you see in it or do other people see in it that support this story? What TCMA do you think or is it thought that Gyokko-ryu owes its inspiration to?

[Plasma]

What Chinese influences do you see in it or do other people see in it that support this story? What TCMA do you think or is it thought that Gyokko-ryu owes its inspiration to?

I don't think any chinese influences are really left it, it supposely been in Japan for >500 years If anything I would guess the claw striking and the fact it primarly a striking ryu-ha versus the native japanese grappling school (however, there are Japanese Kempo Ko Ryu).

As for what style of TMCA? No idea. Probably a style that no longer exists.

[nterry]

Koto-ryu calls its Taijutsu, Koppojutsu. There is no Koto ryu Daken, as least not in any lineage I know of.

There is a section of Hatsumi's SFR video that's titled dakentaijutsu. I never really though about whether it was official somehow or not. I can't find any listings of SFR-daken waza though...you're probably right, it's just a heading in the videos to be descriptive.

Also, I've always heard koppojutsu and koshijutsu used somewhat generically, referring to strikes to the opponent's bone/structure or soft tissue/muscle respectively. Is that others' experience as well?

It was Takamatsu's first school, Hatsumi was a Judo-ka.

Correct. I don't know why I typed Hatsumi...just had him on the brain or something. Takamatsu was given Menkyo Kaiden (full mastership) of Shinden Fudo Ryu when he was only 13. There was a newspaper article from the day that described a fight he had where he supposedly beat a 60 person gang that attacked him. Crazy stuff.

Source please. The origin story I learned for Shinden Fudo ryu was a Japanese warrior who lost a challenge match, when into the mountains and starved himself to gain "enlightment" then coming back and winning against the same opponent.

Gyokko-ryu lineage is in Chinese Boxing.

http://www.mbdojo.com/shindenfudo.htm

This info comes from the book by Paul Richardson (there's a small credit at the bottom.) I'll have to investigate down that road to find out where he got his info from.

The Wiki article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinden_Fudo_Ryu gives credit to Tameyoshi, but unfortunately only cites "Bujinkan legend" as it's source, so it'll be hard to verify. Is this the guy you were talking about?

*More of the same: http://www.shinobi.org/gambatte/shindenfudouryuu.pdf This does make mention of this Izumo cat that fled to Iga because he lost a fight though.