Bujinkan lineage: fact or fiction, somewhere inbetween?

**Fitz** · Posted On: 2/12/2007 12:16pm

From the same website there is a listing of the Waza for each of the Ryuha as taught within the Bujinkan at

http://www.mbdojo.com/ryukata.html

I haven't sat down and gone over it with a fine tooth with comparisons to the other known lineages however. A project for another time.

***Plasma*** · Posted On: 2/12/2007 12:19pm

Originally Posted by Fitz

From the same website there is a listing of the Waza for each of the Ryuha as taught within the Bujinkan at

http://www.mbdojo.com/ryukata.html

Good resource.

Originally Posted by Fitz

I haven't sat down and gone over it with a fine tooth with comparisons to the other known lineages however. A project for another time.

Most of the Lineage divergsing come after Takamastu with lines through Ueno, Sato, and Hatsumi.

**WorldWarCheese** · Posted On: 2/12/2007 12:53pm

So with all the controversy and speculation around Takamastu's Ryuha if I wanted to be a "real ninja" or at least train in their original Koryu arts what should I take?

(This is all very hypothetical as I both assume the only places to train in these ares are half a world away and I really have no interest in being a ninja whatsoever, Ninja never had Kimura. But it still interests me, especially with the ninja craze my anime slap happy geeky friends are in [I'm a geek too, but I like Yawara the Fashionable Judo Girl better than Ninja Scrolls] I'd like to know)

***Plasma*** · Posted On: 2/12/2007 12:57pm

Originally Posted by WorldWarCheese

So with all the controversy and speculation around Takamastu's Ryuha if I wanted to be a "real ninja" or at least train in their original Koryu arts what should I take?

Takamatsu was a Kukishin ryu Shihan and most of his Ryu-Ha are well documented, its the Togakure ryu people qusetion.

(This is all very hypothetical as I both assume the only places to train in these ares are half a world away and I really have no interest in being a ninja whatsoever, Ninja never had Kimura. But it still interests me, especially with the ninja craze my anime slap happy geeky friends are in [I'm a geek too, but I like Yawara the Fashionable Judo Girl better than Ninja Scrolls] I'd like to know)

Well.....no where really. Any school that have ninjutsu is there school have it as a subsection. However, Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu would be as close as possible.

**WorldWarCheese** · Posted On: 2/12/2007 1:40pm

Originally Posted by Ninjew

Takamatsu was a Kukishin ryu Shihan and most of his Ryu-Ha are well documented, its the Togakure ryu people qusetion.

Well.....no where really. Any school that have ninjutsu is there school have it as a subsection. However, Gyokko ryu and Koto ryu would be as close as possible.

Granted. Thanks, time to make some anime fanboys cry, :hippy2:

**nterry** · Posted On: 2/12/2007 2:17pm

Originally Posted by WorldWarCheese

Ninja never had Kimura.

I disagree:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...7094694&q=budo

There are Omote (outside) and Ura (inside) versions of this shoulder lock. It's called Oni Kudaki and is part of the 8 basic kata that most Budo Taijutsu schools teach. The hand placement is a bit different than the ground-based "Kimura" but the same lock is achieved using the same leverage points.

**WorldWarCheese** · Posted On: 2/12/2007 2:26pm

Originally Posted by nterry

I disagree:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...7094694&q=budo

There are Omote (outside) and Ura (inside) versions of this shoulder lock. It's called Oni Kudaki and is part of the 8 basic kata that most Budo Taijutsu schools teach. The hand placement is a bit different than the ground-based "Kimura" but the same lock is achieved using the same leverage points.

I'll be nice since this is a nice forum. :love3:

But I was talking about the guy the move was named after, not the technique used in BJJ. It's called a Hidari Ude Garami, or just simply Ude Garami and ours looks exactly like theirs because we had it first. :new_cussi

Understandable mistake and Welcome to Bullshido: Japanorama Section.

[Edit to stay on Topic: Is this Tech considered Kosher by our Ninja staff? And... hmm.... YEAH! Would this be found in either Gyokko or Koto Ryu? or is it totally gendai?

**nterry** · Posted On: 2/12/2007 2:47pm

Here's the same move from the Shinden Fudo Ryu school:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...8&q=oni+kudaki

Sorry, the dude in the video is a bit lame, but you get the point. In SFR it's more of a clinch move, with the same effect. The same maneuver exists in all six schools, they just each have their own "flavor." I'll try to dig up at least a drawing of the Koto Ryu version.

*Edit: I'm trying to stay on topic without turning this into a technique thread. I guess my point is that each Ryu has their own version of pretty much all of the same techniques. Basically, it proves that they all had the same origins or converged/diverged at least a few times over history.

**Double edit: Well, damn. I can't find it on Google or Youtube, plus it's not listed here as a kata under Koto Ryu:
http://www.mbdojo.com/ryukata.html
I'll keep looking...

***Closer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jk0Tzz0iQbA
We also train using a variation where you step in behind them for a hip toss instead of whizzing them down. (There's almost no real safe way to do this BTW. Just lifting them with the lock with pop the shoulder out.)

**rw4th** · Posted On: 2/12/2007 3:09pm

The major switch was from armor and weapons based arts with mainly lethal intent to mainly unarmed methods designed for non-lethal application.

Would you say contemporary boxers and BJJ practitioners are "larping" because they're not training in firearms instead?

You’re not getting my point. I am not saying they were larping because weapons were not involved, I am saying they started larping because they started putting together techniques with very little practical application against live resisting adversary (e.g. things like standing arm locks). The shift in techniques was less a quest for “non lethal applications”, and rather a by-product of the lack of conflict which allowed people to start basing their approach on theory rather then practical application.