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  1. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/09/2007 8:05am

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     Style: 柔術

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by hawkmed
    Ninjew:
    Just to clarify, it is thought that Hatsumi manufactured these styles (komogakure ryu and Gyokushin ryu)? We were told that Hatsumi is a star of the kodokan, does he have any standing in Japan?
    While I plan to continue to studying Judo, I do miss some of more integrated throwing techniques of the Bujinkan in which strikes are used to set up throws. Could you suggest a Japanese kobudo that does this? I have considered traveling to the UNC to study Daito ryu Aikijujutsu, but I have wondered if this was a battlefield tested system? I have read some things that suggest that this was more of an aristocratic art. Another possibility is Tanemura's brand of jujutsu (Kokusai), but I also don't know of its roots, and I haven't found much written about it.
    Yes. Unless some new evidence comes to light Kumogakure-ryu and Gyokushin-ryu were invented by Hatsumi. As they aren't even taught, I wonder why he did it in the first place.

    Hatsumi in his youth was an excellent Judo-ka. As for star....who knows? I am sure they have his win-loss record at the Kodokan.

    Most Japanese Jujutsu Ryu-ha incorpotate Striking and Throwing. Off the top of my head any of the Kukishin or Yoshin Ryu variants have the more Judo-like throwing. As for Daito-ryu, its basically sharper Aikido. A lot of small joint manipulation and locking on the elbow and lower. If memory serves, Daito-ryu was a palace art (aka bodyguarding) rather then battlefield. It would be more like Harder Aikido and less like "alive" Bujinkan.

    Now I have more respect for the Tanemura-sensei organizations Genbukan Ninpo/Kokusai Jujutsu/Koryu karate. I don't think you'll find a school that doesn't teach all three. However, the Kokusai Jujutsu is primarily Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu and Asayama Ichiden Ryu (Daito-ryu sister school). The Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu contains a lot of striking to set up throws. However, there has by a lot of noise of Genbukan dojo claiming the "too deadly to spar" rhetoric. So check the school out first and ask if they spar.
  2. Fitz is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/09/2007 9:37am


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjew
    Yes. Unless some new evidence comes to light Kumogakure-ryu and Gyokushin-ryu were invented by Hatsumi. As they aren't even taught, I wonder why he did it in the first place.
    If Gyokushin has a recent inventer it is more likely to have been Takamatsu rather then Hatsumi. Ueno Takashi claimed a lineage in the art though the line differs from the one that Hatsumi usually gives in terms of who the previous Soke were. Also there is apparently a Kumogakure-ryu line headed by Tonbe Nobusato Kenji independent of Hatsumi.

    Hatsumi in his youth was an excellent Judo-ka. As for star....who knows? I am sure they have his win-loss record at the Kodokan.
    It may simply have been a poor choice of terms. From what I recall Hatsumi held a 4th Dan in his mid 20s before shifting his focus towards Koryu arts and eventually finding Takamatsu.
    Last edited by Fitz; 2/09/2007 12:04pm at .
  3. Antifa is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/09/2007 2:05pm

    supporting member
     Style: Starting Over... Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjew
    Yes. Unless some new evidence comes to light Kumogakure-ryu and Gyokushin-ryu were invented by Hatsumi. As they aren't even taught, I wonder why he did it in the first place.

    Hatsumi in his youth was an excellent Judo-ka. As for star....who knows? I am sure they have his win-loss record at the Kodokan.

    Most Japanese Jujutsu Ryu-ha incorpotate Striking and Throwing. Off the top of my head any of the Kukishin or Yoshin Ryu variants have the more Judo-like throwing. As for Daito-ryu, its basically sharper Aikido. A lot of small joint manipulation and locking on the elbow and lower. If memory serves, Daito-ryu was a palace art (aka bodyguarding) rather then battlefield. It would be more like Harder Aikido and less like "alive" Bujinkan.

    Now I have more respect for the Tanemura-sensei organizations Genbukan Ninpo/Kokusai Jujutsu/Koryu karate. I don't think you'll find a school that doesn't teach all three. However, the Kokusai Jujutsu is primarily Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu and Asayama Ichiden Ryu (Daito-ryu sister school). The Hontai Takagi Yoshin Ryu contains a lot of striking to set up throws. However, there has by a lot of noise of Genbukan dojo claiming the "too deadly to spar" rhetoric. So check the school out first and ask if they spar.
    What little KJJR I've done (which is very basic and very little) seems, in light of this new information (well new to me) to very much reflect the Daito-Ryu sister school you are talking about. Lots of standing wrist and forarm locks and submissions.

    It is interesting to hear of it as a "Palace Art" when I felt like the KJJR side of things more reflected Tanemura'-sensei's time and experience in the Tokyo PD. Alot of those locks make good "come-alongs" etc. Thanks for the new perspective.
  4. Fitz is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/09/2007 2:51pm


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Antifa
    What little KJJR I've done (which is very basic and very little) seems, in light of this new information (well new to me) to very much reflect the Daito-Ryu sister school you are talking about. Lots of standing wrist and forarm locks and submissions.
    Those are major features in most Koryu and pre-Modern* forms of Jujutsu. The kyu rank material for the KJJR seems to reflect a good solid "here are the basics" that you see as features in most Jujustu that then allows people to specialize in particular lineages after this work has been functionally integrated and can be used fluently. The kind of Jujutsu that is emphasised in the KJJR is the form of unarmed combat that was popular among the Samurai after the Warring States period when open warfare was rare but direct unarmed or lightly armed confrontation still took place.

    *Daito-ryu, while not Gendai is not exactly Koryu either. This has been the subject of a lot of discussion and debate over the last few years with the general concensus being that Sokuaku Takeda formed the Daito-ryu in 1890 based upon his overall training experiences.

    It is interesting to hear of it as a "Palace Art" when I felt like the KJJR side of things more reflected Tanemura'-sensei's time and experience in the Tokyo PD. Alot of those locks make good "come-alongs" etc. Thanks for the new perspective.
    I've been meaning to take a look at some of Tanemura's Goshinjutsu materials. Chances are his years with the Tokyo PD are most reflected in this section of his curricula.
  5. hawkmed is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/09/2007 11:12pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fitz
    The kyu rank material for the KJJR seems to reflect a good solid "here are the basics" that you see as features in most Jujustu that then allows people to specialize in particular lineages after this work has been functionally integrated and can be used fluently. The kind of Jujutsu that is emphasised in the KJJR is the form of unarmed combat that was popular among the Samurai after the Warring States period when open warfare was rare but direct unarmed or lightly armed confrontation still took place.
    So, the Genbukan allows you to specialize in particular arts that are included in the curriculum? How does this work? it seems that it would be difficult to accomodate. Does the Jinenkan also reflect this?

    Also I am curious if you know why Daito ryu style fighting (i.e. wrist/ elbow manipulations) became more popular after the warring periods? It seems to me that the Japanese were generally very proud of lineage, and I would have thought that they would be slow to change their ways. Also, I was under the impression that Daito ryu was developed during the warring periods by Yoshimitsu Minamoto as he studied wrist manipulations that often took place on the dead after a warring event (I read this somewhere, if it is untrue, I don't mean to spread misinformation).
  6. Fitz is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/10/2007 6:23am


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

    --
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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkmed
    So, the Genbukan allows you to specialize in particular arts that are included in the curriculum? How does this work? it seems that it would be difficult to accomodate. Does the Jinenkan also reflect this?
    After someone ranks to 3rd Dan in the Genbukan system they're given the option to study specific ryuha that Tanemura is qualified to teach and give license in. As far as the Jinenkan goes they do seem to be studying the Takamatsuden Ryuha that Manaka is qualified to teach and give license in but I have not heard of him passing on formal license for these schools. Someone who has had more direct experience with the Jinenkan may be better qualified to give you information.

    Also I am curious if you know why Daito ryu style fighting (i.e. wrist/ elbow manipulations) became more popular after the warring periods?
    The really quick and somewhat oversimplified answer if that the role of the Samurai shifted from being full time warriors to being administrators. In the same way that more people today tend to train for things like one on one non-lethal competitive fighting or martial arts for their own sake rather then as preparation for combat such things became popular alongside arts designed towards self and other protection within the halls of administration/government. In such an environment being able to control/disable an attacker become more important then being able to kill them quickly and move on.

    Also, I was under the impression that Daito ryu was developed during the warring periods by Yoshimitsu Minamoto as he studied wrist manipulations that often took place on the dead after a warring event (I read this somewhere, if it is untrue, I don't mean to spread misinformation).
    A rather extensive lineage for Daito-ryu was given by Takeda Sokaku as a part of his reconstruction/revival of the ryu but I wouldn't put too much stock into it. There's a decent thread with some contending points on the origins of Daito-ryu at

    http://www.e-budo.com/forum/archive/...p/t-17048.html

    I tend to favor the recent origin interpretation in the sense that Takeda Sokaku is the one who brought together his various training under the umbrella of the Daito-ryu name rather then that he simply made it all up. As such Daito-ryu as it exists today has an origin no earlier then 1890 with some substantial modifications taking place afterwards.

    To bring this back to the original topic of this thread I get a sense that Takamatsu's role with a number of the lineages he trained in and passed on is much the same as Takeda Sokaku's role with Daito-ryu. It is simply that rather then take all his experiences and stitch them together into a single ryu he separated them out across a number of ryuha. This is however personal speculation and should be treated as such.
  7. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/10/2007 11:21am

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    Incidently on Bullshido.com we have a style profile of Ninjitsu that addresses some of these issues.
  8. rw4th is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/10/2007 4:33pm


     Style: BJJ,MT,RBSD (on hiatus)

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Also I am curious if you know why Daito ryu style fighting (i.e. wrist/ elbow manipulations) became more popular after the warring periods?
    The really quick and somewhat oversimplified answer if that the role of the Samurai shifted from being full time warriors to being administrators. In the same way that more people today tend to train for things like one on one non-lethal competitive fighting or martial arts for their own sake rather then as preparation for combat such things became popular alongside arts designed towards self and other protection within the halls of administration/government. In such an environment being able to control/disable an attacker become more important then being able to kill them quickly and move on.
    Your logic here is approaching bullshido; the lack of effectiveness of standing arm locks and joint manipulations has been discussed many times before, therefore any argument that such a shift took place because they are more effective in a particular context is crap and ignores reality.

    If anything such a shift can be seen as a move away from the rigors of training for real fighting towards a softer and easier martial larping approach which was facilitated by the lack of imminent real conflict.
  9. Fitz is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/10/2007 7:24pm


     Style: Judo, Tomiki Aikido, ??

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    Quote Originally Posted by rw4th
    Your logic here is approaching bullshido; the lack of effectiveness of standing arm locks and joint manipulations has been discussed many times before, therefore any argument that such a shift took place because they are more effective in a particular context is crap and ignores reality.
    Standing locks and joint manipulations on their own can be inefficent, but that isn't the issue. Most of the arts from the period being discussed weren't exclusively about these elements though they were part of a larger context of practice. The major switch was from armor and weapons based arts with mainly lethal intent to mainly unarmed methods designed for non-lethal application.

    Would you say contemporary boxers and BJJ practitioners are "larping" because they're not training in firearms instead?
  10. nterry is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2007 12:10pm

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     Style: Taijutsu, BJJ, MT

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Here is a site with some decent history in it. Also contained in some of the style histories are lists of the grandmasters' lineages. I'd be interrested to see where exactly the others' claim to the styles diverge from these...at Takamatsu? Before?

    http://www.mbdojo.com/history.htm

    It's a decent site for Budo Taijutsu as well. Unfortunately, Ken Harding is no longer teaching. He was a phenomenal martial artist who kept realism in the highest regard. He self-divorced from the Bujinkan after over 15 years because of politics/bullshido tendencies.
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