Bujinkan lineage: fact or fiction, somewhere inbetween?

[Fitz]

i am curious as to what year Tanemura claims he started studying under takamatsu...
and what the year was Hatsumi became soke. and why if Tanemura is a real student of Takamtsu did he fall under hatsumi in the bujinkan for so long.

From what I've gathered Tanemura was Hatsumi's primary training partner while he was attempting to learn and apply what Takamatsu was teaching him for the majority of the 15 years that Hatsumi studied with Takatamtsu. The two of them slowly expanded the circle of individuals involved in the training forming the original core of what became the Bujinkan.

In the same sense that all involved within the Bujinkan are considered ultimately Hatsumi's student, regardless of the Shihan and Shidoshi they train with so too were all of these original core members seen as students of Takamatsu. For better or worse most of this came via correspondence and via Hatsumi's transmission of what he was learning.

like i said in another post, there are alot of questions w/ Tanemura, if you watch the panther productions videos he flat out lies about how he learned martial arts.

I really think you should get a better understanding of just what something like Hamon within a martial tradition means for both parties involved. It might clear things up considerably.

there are too many questions with him...that's why i train bujinkan.

I'm sure you have other reasons as well.

and i like the post asking WHY takamatsu and hatsumi would make this up.

No one familiar with the material feels that Hatsumi made this material up. Where there are questions is just how far and in what form the material for Togakure Ryu, an admittedly small ryu all things considered, extends back historically.

secondly, with the claim to Togakure ryu...why would tanemura except it and teach it?

Because he find it to have valuable material to it and while aware of the historical verification issues related to it feels enough confidence in Takamatsu as a teacher to not doubt his word.

Which, come to think of it, also applies to Hatsumi.

somebody else posted a few posts before this (i should have quoted it) that someone else claims to know Togakure ryu and learned it from someone else other than hatsumi.....
so the bujinkan is not the only org. that recognizes togakure ryu, plus what about reaserch into togakure daisuke...isnt there some history on his life outside of martail arts...but actual history, that would be really good supporting fact for this.

Kacem Zoughari found some references within historic material that Takamatsu would not have had access to that provides some outside proof of the existence of figures within the Togakure Ryu lineage. It might be worth talking to him about it as well as some of the other issues related to Togakure Ryu's recognition status as among Japanese Martial Arts historians. He's a really interesting character and well worth talking and training with.

after reading Tanemura's article on here....from what i have learned in the bujinkan, (part of it) Tanemura split becuase he either disagreed w/ hatsumi /did not understand what he was teaching.

A bit more detail on elements of the split have come out over the years but the main crux was simply a disagreement of how things were being taught.

it seems to be similar to Manaka's way of teaching...sticking only to the techniques...

They both hold that technical skill and knowledge is a requirement to truly capture the essence of the Arts. You'll find similar sentiment among teachers within the Bujinkan though there is not as much emphasis across the entire organization.

[reptileddp]

you mean Hamon like "kicked out"...

that still doesnt answer the question as to why someone whould lie about there training. i would say i trained here...left and started my own organization.

i think hatsumi's teaching methods are just to hard for some to understand.

he never intended for the bujinkan to get this big or to have this many students, that was not his goal...

i think possibly one reason for hatsumi teching the way he does is because of the amount of people in the bujinkan...

the only problem i have with other schools or the thing i like about hatsumi's training is the variations and the way he teaches, but when trying to learn everything, ya i would like to see more actual 'techniques' but the thing is, you can't/ dont get that from people like tanemura/manaka..and i think its more of a flaw of the students in the bujinkan, not the bujinkan's fault...we as students are suppose to go back and focus on the techniques and learn them, and practice...so its up to the students to learn and practice the techniques.

hatsumi doesnt teach either..he shows us stuff, and says, "you have to steal the technique" from him...i feel he actually applies ninjutsu phylosophy to how he teaches as well, more of an evolution of the technique in this way there is alot more knowledge to be gained, and his phylosophy goes far beyond what anyone else teaches, but it's up to the student to grasp it!

[Fitz]

you mean Hamon like "kicked out"...

You're vulgarizing the concept but generally yes.

that still doesnt answer the question as to why someone whould lie about there training. i would say i trained here...left and started my own organization.

Again, find out more about the topic of Hamon. For example why does Hatsumi almost never mention his training with Ueno in Gyokko Ryu, Koto Ryu and Asayama Ichiden Ryu? Because he was subject to Hamon from that lineage. His not speaking about that lineage save in vague ways is his sign of respect to the one who gave that Hamon. Similarly Tanemura's not speaking about Hatsumi save for a few generally positive statements about his training experiences with him is also a sign of respect to Hatsumi.

It's a Japanese cultural thing. Considering the amount of time you claim to be in Japan it might be worth learning a bit more about that culture.

i think possibly one reason for hatsumi teching the way he does is because of the amount of people in the bujinkan...

You're probably partially right with that.

He taught only the basics for year, which few people bothered to learn. They kept clamoring for more and sure enough he's provided it to the point of distraction.

Too bad none of what he is teaching makes sense without that foundation in the basics.

[reptileddp]

hatsumi has said just that...and he is not teaching to everyone, only training to his highest students, or at that highest level, the training is not intended for everyone,
additionally he is not teaching..he is practicing himself, and showing us stuff, he has said this. so i wouldnt put fault on the bujinkan, only the students and teachers who dont teach what they need to.

i'll look into this Hamon thing...i may not be a japanese culture guru, but i do know alot, but i've never herd it mentioned before.

and Hatsumi has talked about his experiance w/ Ueno and former martial arts practice, however with what he has received from Takamatsu i would pretty much disregard all of the other stuff as well if i was him.

just like he has practiced those other things...but he doesnt claim to be a grandmaster of it...just like if you recieve a menkyo kaiden, that doesnt make you a soke.

[Plasma]

just like he has practiced those other things...but he doesnt claim to be a grandmaster of it...just like if you recieve a menkyo kaiden, that doesnt make you a soke.

Many Menkyo Kaiden holders, end up opening their own school and branch of the style. Hence why you have Takagi Yoshin-ryu (Hatsumi), Hontai Yoshin-ryu (True lineage), Hontai Takagi Yoshin-ryu (the True Takagi Yoshin-ryu lineage), the Tanaka Yoshin-ryu lines, etc.


reptileddp, how long have you been training? Who do you train under now?

[shmuel]

Just as an aside, I hear that Hatsumi was meant to have 5th dan in Judo and 5th dan in Aikido before he met Takamatsu. Is there any truth to that?

[Fitz]

Just as an aside, I hear that Hatsumi was meant to have 5th dan in Judo and 5th dan in Aikido before he met Takamatsu. Is there any truth to that?

The general authorized biography for Hatsumi, such as the one found at www.ninjutsu.com/soke-hatsumi.shtml states he had been a 4th Dan in Judo before he set out to learn about Koryu Budo. No mention of his standing in other Gendai arts is typically made though it is stated that he studied Aikido, Kendo and Karate as well.

[shmuel]

If he was only 27 years old when he met Takamatsu then he couldn't have been all that highly graded in so many other arts could he?

Yet I remember reading some article claiming that he had 150 dan ranks! Yes, one hundred and fifty!

[Fitz]

If he was only 27 years old when he met Takamatsu then he couldn't have been all that highly graded in so many other arts could he?

It's possible. There are a few practitioners on this website who are relatively young yet hold a variety of ranks in different arts. If you've dedicated a large part of your life to training it isn't unheard of.

Hatsumi was definately something of a physical prodigy and put a tremendous amount of time and effort into the martial arts. Based on the comments he made in the interview that forms the bulk of Secrets of the Ninja Grandmaster he seems particularly driven towards training this due to an abusive father. Looking to free yourself from that experience, both physically and psychologically, can be a hell of a motivator.

Yet I remember reading some article claiming that he had 150 dan ranks! Yes, one hundred and fifty!

I'd take it with a grain of salt, though I'd be interested in knowing who made the claim.

[reptileddp]

i train under Nagato sensei and Hatsumi sensei. and i attend some of Noguchi sensei's classes, i also train with another japanese shihan and personal friend of mine who is a long time student of Hatsumi's who's name is not well known who is a 12th dan due to the fact he took a 5 year break from training in the 90's.

qoute:
Many Menkyo Kaiden holders, end up opening their own school and branch of the style. Hence why you have Takagi Yoshin-ryu (Hatsumi), Hontai Yoshin-ryu (True lineage), Hontai Takagi Yoshin-ryu (the True Takagi Yoshin-ryu lineage), the Tanaka Yoshin-ryu lines, etc.

yes i understand that...it just seems to me......refering to Tanemura and Hatsumi this is the case...obtaining a scroll and calling yourself a grandmaster as a result of it.

for instance...let's say i was SKH...i would say i studied bujinkan/ X martail arts, under Hastumi for X years, now i have started my own style based on what i learned called this....
but if i lie about my history...and claim something i am not and try to make it out to be something else.......that's wrong.

sometime around the same time tanemura left Hatsumi got sick or something....he wrote copies of the scrolls and past them out to his students in fear or something....
i have heard this story from japanese shihan a few years ago.

that's why, i am just giving my point of view here, from everything i have seen, this is what i feel happened. (refering to tanemura)



150 dan ranks? never heard of that...but anyone can post anything on the internet, that doesnt make it legite.

Hatsumi said when he trained in Judo, he started teaching on the old army post where yokota Ab is now (i think), he was teaching americans...and there was one large man who was able to throw him, that's what led him to seek out Kobudo...becuase he wanted something he could always win at regardless of size/etc... and he realized judo was sport...
that's what i remeber from what i heard him say once anyway...something along this effect.