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  1. shmuel is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/18/2007 2:14pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjew
    Gyokko-ryu wasn't formalized till the 1600s (probably even later). Its origin story places it older. Its a Ko-ryu, but certainly not the oldest ko-ryu, not even close.
    Interesting, thanks for that. I wasn't aware that it was koryu.
    I was always under the impression that Gyokko Ryu was like Togakure Ryu in that it could not be verified previous to Takamatsu.
    Are there scrolls/documents for this school that pre-date Takamatsu?
  2. Plasma is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/18/2007 2:33pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by shmuel
    Interesting, thanks for that. I wasn't aware that it was koryu.
    I was always under the impression that Gyokko Ryu was like Togakure Ryu in that it could not be verified previous to Takamatsu.
    Are there scrolls/documents for this school that pre-date Takamatsu?

    Gyokko-ryu and Koto-ryu can be traced to the Momchi Family in the Iga Region in the 1600s

    Togakure-ryu is supposely based off these ryu-ha making it origin story of 1000 years old, fairly retarded.
  3. reptileddp is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/18/2007 2:36pm

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    where is it exactly, that you get this information from? it seems like you guys sit here and find some internet site to discredit Takamatsu and just cause you found it on the internet you claim it as truth.....it just sounds that way to me.

    where is the proof of this and why it cant be traced back any further to its actual origin?
  4. rw4th is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/18/2007 3:40pm


     Style: BJJ,MT,RBSD (on hiatus)

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    Quote Originally Posted by reptileddp
    where is it exactly, that you get this information from? it seems like you guys sit here and find some internet site to discredit Takamatsu and just cause you found it on the internet you claim it as truth.....it just sounds that way to me.

    where is the proof of this and why it cant be traced back any further to its actual origin?
    Oh lord, are you starting a Koryu history debate in the wrong place and with the wrong guy ... :new_snipe

    On a serious note, people have asked you to provide historical proof from outside the Bujinkan itself, something which should not be difficult to find if it's all real. Why don't you put the BoojBrand (TM) Kool-Aid down for a minute and try to look into that for a while.
  5. shmuel is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/18/2007 4:56pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjew
    Gyokko-ryu and Koto-ryu can be traced to the Momchi Family in the Iga Region in the 1600s

    .
    That is something I didn't know. If that's the case, then that would mean that Toda was a real person. Which is a point in favour of the Bujinkan. I was previously under the impression that Toda's existence itself was in doubt and therefore all the six schools that are traced through him are not verified.
  6. shmuel is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/18/2007 5:00pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by reptileddp
    where is it exactly, that you get this information from? it seems like you guys sit here and find some internet site to discredit Takamatsu and just cause you found it on the internet you claim it as truth.....it just sounds that way to me.
    I'm surprised you haven't heard all this before, because the whole thing has been kicking around for at least 10 years. It's been done to death on all the major forums, including eBudo which is frequented by some very knowledgable experts. As far as I'm aware, no-one has hard proof that Takamatsu made up the ninjutsu schools. But the problem is that his claims have not been verified either. So it's really a bit of a stalemate IMO. No hard proof on either side.
  7. Plasma is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/18/2007 10:25pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by shmuel
    That is something I didn't know. If that's the case, then that would mean that Toda was a real person. Which is a point in favour of the Bujinkan. I was previously under the impression that Toda's existence itself was in doubt and therefore all the six schools that are traced through him are not verified.

    No Toda was very much a real guy, in addition it is pretty widely known he was Shinobi no mono. However, Takamastu/Hatsumi claims his Ninjutsu Ryu-ha was Togakure-ryu to which there is zero evidence.

    Remember Takamatsu came from a Budo family and was high regarded Kukishin-ryu Shihan. Once he started playing with the Ninpo did the Ko-ryu community start raising an eyebrow. However, that doesn't discredit is other stuff.
    Last edited by Plasma; 4/18/2007 10:29pm at .
  8. Plasma is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/18/2007 10:27pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by reptileddp
    where is it exactly, that you get this information from? it seems like you guys sit here and find some internet site to discredit Takamatsu and just cause you found it on the internet you claim it as truth.....it just sounds that way to me.

    where is the proof of this and why it cant be traced back any further to its actual origin?

    My sources are Ko-ryu literature by people like Dreager, Ueno, Takamatsu, Tanemura, Hatsumi early works, Mol, etc. This isn't stuff you look up on Wiki.

    Because stuff is easy to find, doesn't mean it the best resource.
  9. shmuel is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/19/2007 5:17pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjew
    No Toda was very much a real guy, in addition it is pretty widely known he was Shinobi no mono.
    If that is the case then why is it such a problem believing that Takamatsu did learn ninjutsu from Toda? If the man was known to be shinobi no mono and if he was definitely a real person, then surely it's conceivable that he did actually teach ninjutsu to Takamatsu. Why not give him the benefit of the doubt?

    After all, as you say, he was genuinely the shihan of Kukishinden Ryu. And if he did learn Shinden Fudo, Gyokko and Koto Ryu from Toda, surely it's not a huge stretch to accept that he also learned Togakure Ryu from him?

    I was operating under the belief that ALL of the Toda schools were equally unverified simply because Toda was thought not to have really existed. But now , as you say, Toda was a real person and if Gyokko Ryu is genuine after all, why not simply give Togakure Ryu the benefit of the doubt?
  10. Plasma is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/19/2007 10:39pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by shmuel
    If that is the case then why is it such a problem believing that Takamatsu did learn ninjutsu from Toda? If the man was known to be shinobi no mono and if he was definitely a real person, then surely it's conceivable that he did actually teach ninjutsu to Takamatsu. Why not give him the benefit of the doubt?

    After all, as you say, he was genuinely the shihan of Kukishinden Ryu. And if he did learn Shinden Fudo, Gyokko and Koto Ryu from Toda, surely it's not a huge stretch to accept that he also learned Togakure Ryu from him?

    I was operating under the belief that ALL of the Toda schools were equally unverified simply because Toda was thought not to have really existed. But now , as you say, Toda was a real person and if Gyokko Ryu is genuine after all, why not simply give Togakure Ryu the benefit of the doubt?
    Because Gyokko-ryu, Koto-ryu, Shinden Fudo-ryu are simply styles of ko-ryu bujutsu and their are documentation for them past Toda. As for Togakure-ryu it claims to be a solely ninja ryu-ha from the 1100s and their aren't any evidence past 1950s. Even the Hatusmi scrolls were written by Takatmatsu in the 50s. For example, Koto-ryu the scrolls that Kaminaga have, have been dated much older.
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