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  1. shmuel is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/16/2007 5:07pm


     

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by WorldWarCheese
    Go to the Bullshido.Org site or the .Net Homepage and read the article on the Bujinkan, it's a nice read and filled with all you'll need to know. If you have gripes with that, then I'm sure you can argue it to your heart's delight but start there please so it's not the same thing over and over again.
    There's also this site: http://www.koryu.com/library/ninjutsu.html
  2. reptileddp is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 6:23am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    we'll... there are alot of errors on the bujinkan info.

    first of all, all 3 of takamatsu's teachers are verified. togakure ryu is one of the most popular ninpo arts and makes up the foundation of Iga Ryu Ninjutsu. and it is verified if you studied history on togakure diasuke, and the major battles during his lifetime. this is very legitimate information.

    Ninjutsu should be translated as the art of Perseverance. the kanji is blade over heart. it means to protect the heart, or translated as one of pure heart. the meaning behind that is that one must have a pure heart in order to endure.
  3. reptileddp is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 6:30am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    we'll... there are alot of errors on the bujinkan info.

    first of all, all 3 of takamatsu's teachers are verified. togakure ryu is one of the most popular ninpo arts and makes up the foundation of Iga Ryu Ninjutsu. and it is verified if you studied history on togakure diasuke, and the major battles during his lifetime. this is very legitimate information.

    Ninjutsu should be translated as the art of Perseverance. the kanji is blade over heart. it means to protect the heart, or translated as one of pure heart. the meaning behind that is that one must have a pure heart in order to endure.

    togakure ryu is not the oldest school.

    Gyokko ryu is the oldest school its roots go back to being the first structured/organized ryuha in japanese history. togakure ryu is not that old.

    gyokko ryu is the foundation for all japanese/koryu martial arts.

    and if you need to check out a grandmaster/ ryu's credentials you need to look in the nihon daijiten.
  4. shmuel is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 6:49am


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by reptileddp
    gyokko ryu is the foundation for all japanese/koryu martial arts.

    .
    All of them?

    You mean Takenouchi Ryu and Katori Shinto Ryu and others all developed from Gyokko Ryu?
  5. reptileddp is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 3:24pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    i am saying that for the most part yes, original Koryu budo was developed from Gyokko Ryu or was influenced by Gyokko Ryu in some way. (mainland Japan arts) which was the first structured Ryu.

    this is why i say it was the foundation art.

    i do not know the history of those Ryu so i cant say anything about them.

    but i am willing to bet Gyokko ryu influenced an art that influenced those Ryu Ha somewhere down the line whenever they were developed.

    plus..really how much of a difference is there between Ryu... really not too much back then.
  6. Plasma is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 3:31pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by reptileddp

    gyokko ryu is the foundation for all japanese/koryu martial arts.


    Reference for this, outside of Hatsumi.
  7. Plasma is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 3:35pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Honestly, guys I been leaving this troll alone. He just a standard Bujinkan who fallen for the Hatsumi propagranda machine. We are going to cite books and links. There he is going to spout something retarded like Togakure-ryu is a real Ko-ryu and Gyokko-ryu is the basis of all JMA. Then when we ask for proof, he just going to mention Hatsumi and some grandmasterships, that again may or may not be legitamite.

    Its a circlear debate. At least when people search for bujinkan thread they will see what a morons the bujinkan nutridders can be.
  8. shmuel is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 4:13pm


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by reptileddp
    i am saying that for the most part yes, original Koryu budo was developed from Gyokko Ryu or was influenced by Gyokko Ryu in some way. (mainland Japan arts) which was the first structured Ryu.
    I really don't know that this is true.

    I thought that the oldest verifiable jujutsu ryuha was Takenouchi Ryu from about 1532 and that the oldest verifiable weapons school was Katori Shinto Ryu (1447). There is also Maniwa Nen Ryu kenjutsu started in 1368.

    None of these Japanese ryuha say anything about being developed from or influenced by Gyokko Ryu.

    Is there any evidence of Gyokko Ryu existing so long ago? When, in fact, is the earliest that Gyokko Ryu can be traced back?
  9. Plasma is online now
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    Posted On:
    4/17/2007 7:35pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by shmuel
    I really don't know that this is true.

    I thought that the oldest verifiable jujutsu ryuha was Takenouchi Ryu from about 1532 and that the oldest verifiable weapons school was Katori Shinto Ryu (1447). There is also Maniwa Nen Ryu kenjutsu started in 1368.

    None of these Japanese ryuha say anything about being developed from or influenced by Gyokko Ryu.

    Is there any evidence of Gyokko Ryu existing so long ago? When, in fact, is the earliest that Gyokko Ryu can be traced back?

    Gyokko-ryu wasn't formalized till the 1600s (probably even later). Its origin story places it older. Its a Ko-ryu, but certainly not the oldest ko-ryu, not even close.
  10. reptileddp is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/18/2007 11:24am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Cho Gyokko brought Gyokko Ryu from China during the Tang Dynasty. and was organized around 1532- 1600's.

    of course none of you will take hatsumi's word or what is written in the scroll...

    according to Hatsumi, Gyokko ryu was formalized based on the current martial arts in japan which were not really martial arts..it was the way of life, even thought there was no structured fighting system at the time people still had to fight, wars will still waged, people had to defend themselves...

    based on this structurless way of life, gyokko ryu was the first structured school. and this is where all other arts came from in some way or another.
    it doesnt matter if it was Iga or Koga...they were all influenced by Gyokko Ryu.

    again hatsumi said this in early Feb. this year...

    this supposedly took place around the same time japan recieved a writting system, this was one push which aloud them to structure/ write out a fighting system...
    dont remember his exact words here.....

    so just cause an art does not say..."this art was influenced by gyokko ryu"

    doesnt mean it wasnt...

    gyokko ryu influenced alot of arts... that 2nd art whent on to influence another..and another, and then whatever "name art" is created...the base principles or part of it..came from gyokko ryu. (or stemed from that first art) (maybe the creator did not think "gyokko ryu")

    think about it, just like the Kihon Happo is suppose to be the original 8 basic techniques of fighting...they lead to an infinite amount of possiblities..it is from this base were all other techniques were born. (infinite amount of variations)

    now...maybe in theory, which would justify what i am saying, is this-
    what if in the denshou, early history was recorded by say Gyokko ryu, which talked about this, so Gyokko Ryu talks about history it's own roots trace back farther than when it was structured..hence some people consider it to be older than other people who only go off the "official structurized martial art" dates.

    hopefully i worded that in a way that makes sense...
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