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  1. hawkmed is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/07/2007 9:58pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     

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    Bujinkan lineage: fact or fiction, somewhere inbetween?

    Hey all,
    I'm new to bullshido and a previous practicioner of Bujinkan budo taijutsu (previously called Bujinkan Ninjutsu) of 9 years. I started at 14 years old, so I was fairly isolated from any discussions that this may not be genuine. After I started Judo, I realized some of the disbelief thats out there about Hatsumi's claims. So, I've looked into some but it seems that while I have seen that what I learned of ryu such as kukishin ryu and shinden fudo ryu looks authentic, I can't find any proof of Togakure's existence outside of the system. Is this whole thing just a farce or the lies of Hatsumi? Did he mix legitmate styles with hooplah for money?
  2. shinbushi is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/07/2007 10:03pm


     Style: Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ

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    Use the Search function noob
  3. hawkmed is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/07/2007 11:57pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     

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    I found some good articles after searching through some unhelpful bashing. I feel violated. Now I want kobudo without the bullshinkan.
  4. shinbushi is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/08/2007 12:34am


     Style: Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ

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    Why do want to train in kobudo (I assume you me Japanese and not Ryukyu)?
    Outside of Japan real ones are hard to find, though California has 2 high level ones. If you train in judo pick a striking style. If you want the classical weapons training, some Bujinkan schools are good for that.
  5. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/08/2007 12:55am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

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    I'll oblige the opening post.

    Some of the ryu in the bujinkan are valid, kukishinden ryu and takagi-yoshin ryu are legit. I'm not sure about the others but the "ninjitsu" schools, togakure, kumogakure and gikkan are not recognised as real koryu, and can't be traced back any further than takamatsu. It was written in a certian edition of the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten that takamatsu made up togakure out of childhood ninja games. A few recent articles have surfaced on various forums alleging that "ninjitsu" was added becuase it was impossible to compete for attention with the kokdokan. One thing is for certian, you can look as hard as you want, you won't uncover anything about togakure which doesn't come from the bujinkan/takamatsu.
  6. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/08/2007 8:06am

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: 柔術

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    Quote Originally Posted by shinbushi
    Use the Search function noob

    The JMA forum is new, I approve a new thread on this that can be moderated.
  7. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/08/2007 8:10am

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: 柔術

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    Quote Originally Posted by Virus
    I'll oblige the opening post.

    Some of the ryu in the bujinkan are valid, kukishinden ryu and takagi-yoshin ryu are legit. I'm not sure about the others but the "ninjitsu" schools, togakure, kumogakure and gikkan are not recognised as real koryu, and can't be traced back any further than takamatsu. It was written in a certian edition of the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten that takamatsu made up togakure out of childhood ninja games. A few recent articles have surfaced on various forums alleging that "ninjitsu" was added becuase it was impossible to compete for attention with the kokdokan. One thing is for certian, you can look as hard as you want, you won't uncover anything about togakure which doesn't come from the bujinkan/takamatsu.

    You mean Togakure-ryu, Kumogakure-ryu and Gyokushin-ryu

    Gikan-ryu(義鑑流) is a Koppojutsu lineage that is taught through Akimoto family.
    Last edited by Plasma; 2/08/2007 8:17am at .
  8. Plasma is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/08/2007 8:34am

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: 柔術

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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkmed
    Hey all,
    I'm new to bullshido and a previous practicioner of Bujinkan budo taijutsu (previously called Bujinkan Ninjutsu) of 9 years. I started at 14 years old, so I was fairly isolated from any discussions that this may not be genuine. After I started Judo, I realized some of the disbelief thats out there about Hatsumi's claims. So, I've looked into some but it seems that while I have seen that what I learned of ryu such as kukishin ryu and shinden fudo ryu looks authentic, I can't find any proof of Togakure's existence outside of the system. Is this whole thing just a farce or the lies of Hatsumi? Did he mix legitmate styles with hooplah for money?
    The 9 Ryu-Ha

    Kukishin(den)-ryu & Takagi Yoshin-ryu

    Legimate Ko-ryu that traditional are taught and handed down together. There are a load of lineage charts for them most of them correct.


    Gyokko-ryu & Koto-ryu

    Sister ko-ryu arts from the Momochi clan in Iga. There are a few lineage since Takamastu Takamatsu Toshitsugu including the students of Ueno Takashi

    Shinden Fudo-ryu

    Again a Ko-ryu art with quite a few lineages.


    Togakure-ryu & Kumogakure-ryu & Gyokushin-ryu

    Ninjutsu Ryu-Ha that are NOT Ko-ryu they are gendai budo that are basis of them are older scrolls and technique salavaged through research primarily. The oldest which was created by Takamatsu in the 50s. The other 2 have no record past Hatsumi.

    Gikan-ryu

    Koppojutsu lineage taught through the Akimoto family.
  9. hawkmed is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/08/2007 5:18pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     

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    More newbie questions

    Ninjew:
    Just to clarify, it is thought that Hatsumi manufactured these styles (komogakure ryu and Gyokushin ryu)? We were told that Hatsumi is a star of the kodokan, does he have any standing in Japan?
    While I plan to continue to studying Judo, I do miss some of more integrated throwing techniques of the Bujinkan in which strikes are used to set up throws. Could you suggest a Japanese kobudo that does this? I have considered traveling to the UNC to study Daito ryu Aikijujutsu, but I have wondered if this was a battlefield tested system? I have read some things that suggest that this was more of an aristocratic art. Another possibility is Tanemura's brand of jujutsu (Kokusai), but I also don't know of its roots, and I haven't found much written about it.
  10. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/08/2007 8:47pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

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    Quote Originally Posted by hawkmed
    We were told that Hatsumi is a star of the kodokan, does he have any standing in Japan?
    He's not a star of the kodokan and even if he was, he's tarnished any such status by starting a ninja school for naieve westerners. Amongst historians the ninja are seen as a bit silly and cartoonish which is why very few of them take self-styled "ninjas" seriously.

    One of our members, Mongo, informs us that Hatsumi isn't very highly regarded by respectable koryu and judo masters in Japan. I'd be interested in hearing some of the things he has heard them say during his time in Japan.
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