Thread: Tae Kwon Do..Changes?
2/06/2007 10:05pm, #51Originally Posted by Blues-man
Originally Posted by Blues-man
THIS IS NOT AN EXIT
"Ladies and gentlemen, the pilot has instructed everyone to sit the **** down and shut the **** up." Henry Rollins
2/06/2007 10:58pm, #52
Originally Posted by TKD Black Belt
- Join Date
- Aug 2006
- TKD ITF, Judo
- I guess my question would be why wait till then to teach something that you won't use in competition?
The sweeps and takedowns first are practiced in one step sparring and at red belt we introduce them to the sparring.
2/07/2007 12:47am, #53
What I meant: The TKD competitions that ostensibly award points for punches don't seem too. There seems to be, when you watch TKD, an active conspiricy to NOT award any punches points - even punchs that are legal scoring techniques in the rules. This is, in my opinion, because of training bias in most gyms - their punches are so bad, they don't even think they matter in a fight. I've seen a fighter from my old gym have a match stopped so she could be warned for "palm heel strikes" in a TKD match - because her punches actually had noticeable effect on someone in a hogu, so in the eyes of the ref, they COULDN'T have been actual PUNCHES but had to have been some bizzare iron palm.
I also think the hogu should go, and the chintzy head protectors should either go or be replaced with real headgears at the top level. Hogus and dipped foam should be children's gear.
Why does all this matter?
The 'better' your sport is the 'better' your self defense will be. Realistic sparring leads to realistic timing and distancing, and that's what allows you to land the technqiue of choice on an assailent, in whatever context. Good free practice is vital to meaningful martial arts.
PS: I AM SHOCKED MYSELF TO LEARN THIS BUT EVIDENTLY I DID TKD FOR SEVERAL YEARS AT SOME POINT.
PPS: THAT EXPLAINS THE BOX OF MEDALS IN MY CLOSET MY FULL CONTACT ADDLED BRAIN JUST THOUGHT THEY WERE "SHINY COOKIES"
Last edited by JohnnyCache; 2/07/2007 12:51am at .
2/07/2007 2:48am, #54
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- Join Date
- Mar 2006
- Long Island,NY
Whats with all the people trying to make somehting effective when there are already effective means. Anyways Ill take a stab.
Loose the hogu, as Johnny points out. Wear better headgear or just spar ala Kyokushin.
Emphasize the kicks and if thats what TKD wants, then let them do that. The rules should be very open though to strikes. Maybe punches and kicks to the body and only kicks to the head? Then you can see if your kicks are actually working, its realsitic and it emphasizes KO kicks because you cant punch the head. I think this is a great idea. Dont allow grabbing (or do, maybe a 30 sec rule), but dont allow takedowns or ground ****, cause thats not what TKD is.
2/07/2007 7:54am, #55
I agree that TKD is not ground fighting. If someone feels compelled to learn effective ground skills then they should cross train.
I am NOT advocating teaching ground work/Ground fighting. I am saying that TKD should be expanded to include techniques that were already existing in the art.
Not all TKD matches allow only kicks. I have participated in many tourneys were punches were scored no matter where they landed on the torso or head, or with what amount of force.
TKD needs to allow (this is a school based problem really, but is becoming more the norm) more realistic sparring. Let the sparring come up to par in the schools and tourneys will follow suit.
Still, we are drifting a bit here.
The topic isnt wether TKD point sparring needs to be revamped, its, does TKD need to return to its roots as a whole or is a new style of TKD necessary to "reintroduce" the techniques that have existed for years. (knees, elbows, takedowns/sweeps, retention strikes, etc)
Takedown defense needs to be added to get people used to the idea that someone is going to grab them. This way it wont be a shock when someone does. Sweeps/takedowns are already part of TKD, they just arent actively taught.
Any ground training would be as simple as......"Buck your hips, and roll out" or teach some shrimping. Again.....if someone wants to become proficient in a ground fighting art , they should crosstrain.
2/07/2007 8:56am, #56
I admire what you are trying to do but I think you are fighting a lost cause. TKD as a sport has so many more applications than TKD as a SD system. People like to see trophies on the wall at the place where they are taking classes. The point sparring is so engrained in the system that I don't think it can be fixed. I think what you should do is find someone who teaches a more SD oriented MA and arrange crosstraining at your school.
2/07/2007 9:34am, #57
To facilitate the bringing of this thread back on topic, we must look at what inherently makes TKD, less than ideal for SD. Keep in mind that the opinion I just stated is NOT indicative of all TKD styles, or Schools.
Also remember, we are not discussing McDojo's or the thousands of belts one must sometime achieve on their journey to BB. We are taking an in depth, HONEST look at what has caused the SD aspect of TKD to disappear, and what changes are needed to bring back the SD aspect. Be it starting a new sub style of TKD, or what have you.
We are also not discussing the 1 million year old history of TKD. We all know that its current incarnation is about 40 years old. While its roots may go back further, that is being discussed quite well on another thread in this forum
1. Weak sparring practices.
- Point sparring is the norm. To win at point sparring, you must simply throw your technique faster than your opponent. (All things such as physical size being equal) Power, and technique are secondary in this situation.
- This can be translated as McDojoism. I have been to/visited/took classes at, many TKD schools in my area, and just beyond.
- While some are worse than others, a sense of McDojoism exists in all of them. Even my current school is beginning to swing that way a little too much for my liking. Hence the reason I started this thread.
- I have also attended a Kenpo school, and they had they same prevailing trend towards the McDojo.
- The art is watered down because people focus too much on the BB as a source of SD skill. As we all know a BB means very little in this day and age in many MA's.
- People dont want little johnny or little suzie getting a black eye so they complain when their child is handled a little too roughly by another student. In this day and age, lawsuits are prevelent. parents will sue for just about anything, iregardless of the fact that their child is takeing a MA.
- So to keep the customers happy, the dojo owner, begins to water down the art. This usually includes attaching more importance to the point sparring/kata/wepaons aspect of the tournaments. People equate trophies with SD/MA skill.
- Parents want to brag about their kids. Nothing wrong with that. Therefore, they want their children to win at tournaments so they can say.."Well my boy won first place in sparring this weekend" To the uninitiated that conjures up a picture of ACTUAL SPARRING.
- As you read above, people equate tournament trophies with MA/SD skills. I have a few first place trophies for point sparring, and forms. I have a myriad of other trophies that fall into the second and third place category.
- Now the more people hold trophies in esteem, the more the art suffers for SD
- By changing the art itself, and focusing more on the SD aspect of it, then the tourneys will follow suit. If someone starts "reintroducing" the lost aspects of TKD, and people begin to take this new direction, then naturally, they will want to pressure test it. (I make the assumption that people who start taking it for SD will see the need to) This will lead to some form of new rule set, and tourney organization.
- I feel that the answer here is yes. TKD is so looked down on by others, that some people would say "Why take TKD? People say it sucks." This will keep someone from taking TKD, because they feel that their BB will not be taken seriously.
- Starting a new style of TKD, isnt really that far fetched. As I have said before, there are many different styles of Karate, Jujitsu, Kung Fu, and so on.
- TKD is a stand up art. There are sweeps in it yes, but the point of those sweeps is to put your opponent on the ground to facilitate an advantageous position.
- TKD isnt a ground fighting/submission/grappling art. I cant say this enough....If you want to learn to grapple, crosstrain in Judo/BJJ/Sambo whatever.
- TKD needs to bring back the knees, elbows, sweeps, and retention strikes, that it has had from the start. They are in the patterns/kata/forms that curently exist in the ITF.
- TKD also needs to add some form of ground survival skills. Again, I am NOT advocating the teaching of grappling and submissions in TKD. WHat I am refering to is the basic skills to get someone off of you, or disengage from a ground fight, and take it back to a standing fight. Shrimping is an EXCELLENT means of this.
- TKD needs to add takedown defense, such as a sprawl, or what have you. This will help someone counter a sweep/takedown by another TKDer. It is a necessary addition, becaus we are bringing back offensive, sweeps/takedowns.
- TKD needs to take away the high spinning kicks, as part of the SD aspect. Spinning kicks, yes. They can be used as a tactic, if you feel that you need to strike first. High head kicks, yes. Of course all of that will come out in the wash, when it is pressure tested, AFTER we decide on a basic curriculum.
- For our discussion lets use Brazilian Jujitsu as a model. While relatively new to the US, it has been practiced worldwide for many years. People hold it in high esteem for one reason. It works. It hasnt begun to be watered down, to the point that TKD has because its practitioners wont let it. They have to EARN their BB (this isnt to say that I or others didnt EARN their BB in TKD) in an alive pressure testing environment. If you are training in a BJJ McDojo (they exist I am sure) then when you show up for a competition (pressure testing) it will show.
- A proper TKD organization, and tourney Organization is needed to keep things in line. While the Org. cant control all of the schools out there, it can offer a good and consitent pressure testing environment where there affilites can compete. As The Gracies have said.."The proof is in the pudding"
If you feel that your school or organization has t3h r34l TKD. Please step up. However, be prepared to show us videos of what you do, and links to the school. Dont drag your instructor/school owner into a fight they didnt want.
Start another thread on it.
2/07/2007 9:35am, #58Originally Posted by Moon Dragon
2/07/2007 10:33am, #59Originally Posted by biomed190
2/07/2007 11:07am, #60
You would need to bring in as many CQ techniques as you can. Most TKDers know the long stuff and are fairly good at it, in my experience if you get close to a TKDer they don't know what to do. So that is my two cents.