i acknowledge that jumping and spinning techiniques can be overkill, if the technique is well done then with speed and power than more power would have been generated with this technique than a simpler one. all to say that if ur good enough, then jumping techniques especially are worth the exrta effort. gotta back up my TKD
Kwoww, where in NY are you from?
Points scored can be pretty subjective, too.
Originally Posted by kwoww
I'd far rather see the 10pm system in place then doing something like importing hard-to-understand rules from fencing to account for the way people stress speed over power.
Although, again, this is where contact becomes an issue - if people are hitting, throwing, and subbing hard, you only NEED points when time runs out. If they aren't, you have to face the difficult, larpy task of deciding who would have won IF they were fighting harder. Trying and failing to answer that difficult, subjective, and often un-neccesary question is why point karate and point tkd styles don't seem to crown the same sort of atheletes as champions as contact styles.
Originally Posted by JohnnyCache
Like the winner of the round getting 10 points and the loser 9 or less?
That sounds like a better way to keep continuity in the match.
As for the elbows and knees to the face head.
I have a real job, and while I dont mind getting cut ( I have had my left eye stitched up *8 stitches* from an alive TKD sparring match) it wasnt well received, since i deal with customers all day.
Knees and elbows to the face are out. I also agree with other points made here. Let me break them down.
BTW, thanks Kid/Anna for coming.
Originally Posted by 3KIM
Our intentions are to leave those in. They are fundamentally part of TKD. If you can make them work then so be it.
I have seen a jump spinning back kick used to devastating effect in the 1990 World Police and Fire Games that was held in Memphis. The thrower of the technique was disqualified for it.
Ok, let sum up things so far. This will make it easier to sort out points of discussion
- Allow all techniques in TKD as part of the SD and Tournament techniques. People will soon see that some tech's dont work in a tourney or SD environment as others
Added point here
- Lower belts allowed less access to techniques. This may not be the general consensus here.
- No knees or elbows to the face
- No hip throws (not part of TKD that I can tell, more HKD)
- Foot sweeps, and support leg sweeps only.
- 10 point scoring system. This will less complicate things allowing for a better overall unified art, which directly affects the SD aspect.
- Round length? Many TKD tourneys run long. The matches are usually 2 minutes long. This is too short for any real competiton and pressure testing. 3-5 minutes? 3 rounds? Keep in mind that padding will be needed for the new ruleset and tourney promoters will be hesitant in dropping 2 or 3K for a new breed of TKD, when the one they have is working just fine finacially. (a demo may be in order here)
- The new TKD will have to be sold to the schools. They are money driven. Yes, we all know its true, (99% are) please save your, "My instructor only charges this or that." This can be done in a few ways. ( I personally know the owners and Instructors at 5 different schools in my area)
Note: I know the above sounds bad. I feel that I can use the owners own weakness's against them to implement my agenda. As soon as I can afford more mats (they are $300) I will buy more, and try to start a Saturday class on the new ruleset. Without going into my schools programs, I feel that there is a perfect opportunity coming here for me to implement my agenda in my own backyard.
- Explain to them that the new style is more SD oriented, and can capitalize on the new MMA craze, which has sent even more people out in in search of Martial Arts training. Im not advocating telling people that we are teaching MMA/BJJ/Judo, or anything else. Just appealing to their greedier side.
- They can sell more pads. Knees/shin/elbows pads. Gear=$.
- People have a skewed view of the art because of blatant McDojoism. This will help set their school apart, and when it catches on, and it will, then they will have been a pioneer.
Note 2: I am not wanting to become a Soke GM or anything. I give full credit for the idea to Stuart Anslow.
Ok guys, time to iron out the kinks. Since some of us have real ring experience, and knwoledge lets attack the rule set first.
I apologize since I didn't read every post in this thread, but I didn't see anyone talking about having "real" fights. In my life I have front kicked to the face (end of fight), spin side kick to the ribs (end of fight), knife hand strike to the nose (broken nose and end of fight) and reverse punch to the face (also end of fight). One strike, that was it. I didn't have to grappel. My best friend, another TKD'ist - I have seen him end fights with reverse punch, flying side kick and round kick to the head. Again all one strike fights.
I started TKD in 1977 and many schools have followed Olympic style competition since that time. Point tournaments were always around. But I don't follow where you equate tournaments of any sort with real fighting. I have never been in a fight or seen a fight, that was anything close to a tournament setting.
When I first started TKD there wasn't much in the way of saftey equipment. Broken noses, cracked ribs, etc were the norm. I had a tooth knocked out in a non-contact tournament. He wasn't disqualified, he was given a warning. Now, students can wear protective equipment and not receive these injuries that slow your training down. Why would you not want that? And who wants to train to take a punch anyway? The whole idea is to train so you don't have to, right? And don't talk about "what really happens" because I have been there many times.
I can tell you that 80%, maybe more, of TKD students are not going to be in fights anyhow. I was young and full of myself and wanted to test myself, not my art, so I went looking for trouble. My son who can literally side kick me off the ground, he is 20, has never been in a fight. The best self-defense begins way before you ever have to throw a technique.
I have sparred with, worked out with people from so many different styles, that I can't remember all of them. Most had a low opinion of TKD until they worked with me. Every single one of them said, "You hit hard". But I didn't do anything that everyone else in my school wasn't doing. What I saw was a lack of proper training, not a lack of technique. They never kicked the heavy bags, shields, etc. There was an emphasis on teaching too many techniques in too short of time. By 1st degree BB I knew front, side, round and crescent kick & some variations of those techniques.
When a person comes in to the school for the first time, they have some ability to fight naturally, doesn't everyone? Grappling is a natural path that people take, I don't know, maybe it comes from when we are babies and learn to grasp onto people for safety. And there is nothing wrong with teaching take downs, throws, etc - but they rarely end the fight and you have to follow up with something anyhow. So I want my students to never have to be on the ground or grappling in the first place.
If you are looking to turn anyone into a self-defense person, then show them finger strikes to the eyes, groin kick, punch to the face and maybe some kick to the knee. Have them train for 6 months only on this, and there you go, self defense oriented martial art.
I think that if you want your school to emphasize self-defense, then do so, but don't try to forward the idea that there is something wrong with the art of TKD. You just have a personal direction to follow and 90% of the other people in your school don't want it or need it. How do you think art's like Judo, TKD, the main systems of Karate got started. The founder(s), understood self-defense fighting, but they wanted something more, they wanted to give something that made people grow spiritually and mentally. Martial arts have always been fluid, changing, adapting to the need. Currently, there is not much self-defense need, so the arts are turning towards sport or more artistic directions. If there comes a time that it is needed, the way martial arts are taught will change.
I think you should start a "hard sparring club", where you could invite people who want to test what they have learned. At this meeting you could go over the rules that you decide on, and take feedback from the others who want to be involved. After you get a solid group together, then I would start talking about an exabition. Invite people from other TKD schools in your area as well. Make it as open as possible for those who wish to come. See how that goes and adjust the program as needed from there.
That would be me.. :5slick:
Originally Posted by oldman34
This is an interesting thread but its missing a couple of points:
1. You are talking about improving TKD on a fighting level.. SD starts way before any fight begins, to improve SD a school needs to incorporate a proper self protection syllabus which includes awareness, target hardening, pre-fight, line ups etc. etc. After all, a fight only happens if someone makes many mistakes in self protection principles first (including not knowing any).
2. To me, Self defence is what you use to try to end a fight quickly, this is employed if self protection principles dont work (ie. you didnt follow the basic rules of SP or made an error putting you in a dangerous situation), fighting is what happens when self defence goes to crap! However, a student needs to learn to fight to back this up if need be.. but one without the other means you are advocating a small woman (for example) jumps straight into a fight, when she perhaps could of avoided it!
3. As pointed out, the "95% fight goes to the ground" myth is simply that - a myth. Im told its taken from an police report in the US where they have to take them to the ground to cuff them and was used by the Gracies when they were propaging the Gracie BJJ rise to fame. That said, some ground options are needed to fill a void in TKD (or any system)
4. With all that said we come back to the issue here.. how to make TKD more relevant for fighting on the street. As mentioned, certain techiques need to be allowed, which requires another form of sparring to facilitate it.. it is already there and termed "Traditional Sparring". In traditional sparring, grabs, knees, sweeps, low kicks and strikes are allowed.. its up to the student to utilize them. Contact levels can vary depending on what level they want to go to.. knowing that heavier is closer to reality, but as others have said, not everyone wants or is capable of going full out all the time.. an instructor has the option to vary contact levels accordingly, thereby not forcing students to do something they cant handle (rather than simply dont want to do). They also have the option to allow it to continue if it does go to the ground or institue other options relating to it. If sport rules are made to push it forward, these options become less variable and actually detrimental to training it! (see point 7)
5. It is not an issue of keep this, take that out (technique wise) its an issue of what to allow in traditional sparring to get a close as possible to a fight but remain reasonibly safe. For example, in my school students can use their fingers to the eyes, but they can jab them.. they can jab the forehead or press them lightly into the eye sockets.. both are acknowledge for the damage they could cause by students. A student should learn all the techniques of TKD and be allowed to decide what works for them and what doesnt, as this is the case with techniques - this type of sparring soon shows what techniques are relevant to it anyway and other techniques can be relevant for other situatons etc.
6. Contact is good and great for those that can handle it. Little Miss 7 stone who works on the front desk at a beauticians doent want to go to work with a black eye and split lip, so the easiest way to get students use to contact is glove them up (those that want it) and let them go for it. We work on heavy contact sparring for our adults, meaning they can hit hard but are not meant to kill the person, though occassionally they will go for it but only after they have both agreed to it, rather han being forced into it. NO ONE trains full contact sparring all the time.. even the FC Muay Thai clubs or else all the students would be out with injuries!
6. The sport issue is just that! Its the sport side, its not fighting, and as someone pointed out if a students wants to test themselves under various rulesets theres options to do so. For those that like ITF style sport sparring, theres no reason to change it to facilitate more SD related competition - competition is sport and training is training, so a element in training needs to be added. Forcing a rule change will stop a lot of people doing it anyway and besides the big orgs aint gonn a let it happen as less people = less money for them. That said, only 5% of students compete for the sake of it anyway!
7. The best way in my mind to institue things is to make it part of the syllabus, that way it effects everyone. IE For a grading, you have to do traditional sparring to a reasonable level! If its in the syllabus.. all students are effected by it, so will have to get better at it and get use to it, plus instructors will have to ensure they train this area as well! The best way to enforce this is on an association level, the 2nd best way is on a club by club level, as orgs seem unwilling to push things like this as it scares of students, I guess they are caught in a rut!
8. You often hear people say I'd get rid of this and that training method, but its usually because they dont understand the benefits of it and how it relates to TKD, but like with the techniques, its not about taking stuff away, simply about making sure certain areas of training are more applicable to what they are needed for and covered more often!
I haven't fought in tournaments for many years now, but we used to have all sorts of variations. We had 3 minutes, total points matches - those were the ones I liked best, one point for all techniques, 2 minutes - 3 points, 2 minutes - 5 points, then there is the Olympic style tournaments, semi-contact, team sparring, etc. But none of them prepare you for a real fight, other than any martial arts training will give you a better chance than no training.
Do you want creative ideas for sparring - is that the point? I make my students fight from chairs, seated on the ground, both on the ground, carrying an object in their arms (to imitate holding grocieries or a baby), 2 on 1, 3 on 1, 3 on 2, back to back, etc, etc. The variations are endless. This thread started off as why TKD isn't more self-defense oriented, and what is it now - a discussion of creating a new TKD? To create something new, you have to forward a new concept in training, or philosophy.
I'm willing to help any of you with training ideas and procedures. Contact me at firstname.lastname@example.org.
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