Tae Kwon Do..Changes?

**oldman34** · Posted On: 2/05/2007 6:44pm

Over the past few years, I have attended various TKD schools either as a guest (training) or as a visitor (sat in and watched classes). I have noticed the same thing that many of you already know.

TKD is seriously lacking in the usefulness for SD department. I cant help but wonder why this is. Is it because TKD has been commercialized so much that it has lost the "alive" training mentality that is needed for true SD usefulness?

Could it be because it never had SD applications to begin with? I cant believe this. ( I am reading the thread by TEA... http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=50936 , to get a better idea of the early history of TKD)

My school does ITF patterns. In some of the patterns, there are elbows, low kicks, and knees. There is even a wrist retention in Hwa-Rang (spelling?) I am just learning the 1st degree BB patterns, and have noticed the same things about them.

At my school, you are allowed to do CONTROLLED takedowns at BB level. (The problem with a CONTROLLED takedown is obvious, I dont want to get into that here)
Yet the takedowns are not actively taught or even encouraged.

I have had a small amount of Judo and BJJ training during my life, and while not an expert on takedowns, feel that I have some base in them. I wish to approach the school owner about adding a takedown attack and defense to the curriculum. I would also like to add, (as part of the takedown curriculum) some small amounts of ground defense (just , how to buck someone off, things like that) I am NOT teaching BJJ or Judo in ANYWAY, since I am not qualified to teach either.

There is a book by Staurt Anslow on this subject. I havent read it yet. If anyone else has, please feel free to chime in. There is someone on these boards claiming to be Anslow, wether he is or not I dont know.

My reasoning for adding this to the curriculum is two fold.

1. It will add some real value to the SD aspect of TKD (of course, added aliveness will also do this, but thats a different fight I have coming up, and I want to gradually add that to the curriculum)

2. It will help the TKD practitioners at my school, learn to go for the solid, high percenatge stuff (less high head kicks and spinning ****) and to be more aware of the consequences of lazy attacks on an opponent. (This is where I am hoping that "aliveness" will begin to flower on its own, and sneak in there)

Criticism and ideas are welcomed.

**panthersix** · Posted On: 2/05/2007 7:47pm

What's the difference between a take down and a throw? We do HapKiDo at our TKD dojang, 5 for every belt. That's 50 you have to master for your BB exam. When you do 2 on 1 sparring, you can do the throws at about 1/2 speed, faster if you know your moves very well.

These are a completely different test than the Poomse or forms.

**oldman34** · Posted On: 2/05/2007 7:53pm

Originally Posted by panthersix

What's the difference between a take down and a throw? We do HapKiDo at our TKD dojang, 5 for every belt. That's 50 you have to master for your BB exam. When you do 2 on 1 sparring, you can do the throws at about 1/2 speed, faster if you know your moves very well.

These are a completely different test than the Poomse or forms.

A takedown (at my school) is where you sweep there legs out from under them or trip them (scissor legs takedown, etc) Sweep would be an interchangeable word here.

I am not familiar with HKD. So when you say 5 for every belt, I dont follow you. Help me out some please.

**kwoww** · Posted On: 2/05/2007 7:54pm

TKD was always a sport martial art, and the SD application has always been secondary. After all, much of it is derived from Taekyon, which, like TKD, was, is, and always will be a sport.

I learn Hapkido as well at my TKD school, though we don't do as much as you do, panthersix. We don't do takedowns with the kids at lower belts, but at BB level we do some highly effective self-defense techniques for if you're, say, being accosted at an ATM or entering your car (where any punk with a knife can just take your money/car and leave). In t3h str33t, TKD and Hapkido really aren't very useful, simply because of the style.

**kwoww** · Posted On: 2/05/2007 7:57pm

Originally Posted by oldman34

I am not familiar with HKD. So when you say 5 for every belt, I dont follow you. Help me out some please.

I think he means 5 different ways to get yourself out of unwanted contact, i.e. defense against punches, wrist grabs, shirt grabs, bear hugs, some weapons, etc. There are numerous ways to do each of these, with varying effectiveness depending on who the attacker is.

(sorry bout the double post!)

**oldman34** · Posted On: 2/05/2007 8:02pm

Originally Posted by kwoww

TKD was always a sport martial art, and the SD application has always been secondary.

Can that not be changed?

Originally Posted by kwoww

TKD and Hapkido really aren't very useful, simply because of the style.

By style, what do you mean? The inherent spinning kicks? High spinning kicks, while powerful, are virtually useless in a fight, on this we agree. Jumping/Flying kicks are also useless.

Since moves that are more viable for SD (knees, elbows, lower kicks to the torso/legs) are in the patterns, then shouldnt they be more exploited for the SD aspect? Would focusing more on a SD curriculum (aliveness is a MUST here) necessitate starting a new TKD style? Or do you think that an existing style can be refocused on the SD part?

As soon as I can scrape 40 bucks together (4 kids ya know) I will buy Anslows book. He address's this in it, from what I understand from earlier discussions with him.

**panthersix** · Posted On: 2/05/2007 8:07pm

Originally Posted by kwoww

I think he means 5 different ways to get yourself out of unwanted contact, i.e. defense against punches, wrist grabs, shirt grabs, bear hugs, some weapons, etc. There are numerous ways to do each of these, with varying effectiveness depending on who the attacker is.

(sorry bout the double post!)

Kwoww is accurate but it also includes alot of punches, kicks and a few sweeps with the legs. Some hip throws, some over the shoulder throws, etc. I have to relearn all of mine this year before I can test of BB. I had a tour in Iraq in 2005 and didn't get back to TKD till mid 2006, then had shoulder surgery....and my old ass forgot all the sequences.

**oldman34** · Posted On: 2/05/2007 8:07pm

Originally Posted by kwoww

I think he means 5 different ways to get yourself out of unwanted contact, i.e. defense against punches, wrist grabs, shirt grabs, bear hugs, some weapons, etc. There are numerous ways to do each of these, with varying effectiveness depending on who the attacker is.

(sorry bout the double post!)

Ahhhh. now I see. This isnt quite what I am talking about. I dont like prearranged sequences for SD. I feel that you are better served learning HOW to punch than WHEN to punch. For example...

If your attacker does this , you should do this.

Prearranged sequences lead to boring/dead compliant drills IMO. Your partner KNOWS what to expect and he reacts accordingly.

As far as the double post....dont worry about it.

**Teh El Macho** · Posted On: 2/05/2007 8:09pm

Originally Posted by panthersix

What's the difference between a take down and a throw? We do HapKiDo at our TKD dojang, 5 for every belt. That's 50 you have to master for your BB exam. When you do 2 on 1 sparring, you can do the throws at about 1/2 speed, faster if you know your moves very well.

These are a completely different test than the Poomse or forms.

Hmmm, using wrestling lingo, a takedown is when you take the person down, controlling the descent/slam with the intention to keep him there. The goal is to take your opponent down and keep him/her there.

A throw is just the action of throwing your opponent, without necessarily looking to gain ground control. Your goal is to slam the **** out of your opponent first. Whether or not you follow it to the ground, that will be up to you and the circumstances.

I may be wrong, so please somebody with more knowledge of wrestling correct me on this. I believe that under wrestling rules, you are expected to control your opponent's body and control the descent. Just picking him up and letting him drop like a bag of potatoes will get you penalized.

With a throw (as I understand it from Judo), you are not restrained by that rule. You lift/pick him and throw him hard to end the fight.

In the middle of a fight/bout, the distinction is not that clear, but from a technical point of view, that's the difference between a takedown and a throw.

-- ED --

Sorry if this is not 100% relevant to your discussion :tongue3:

**oldman34** · Posted On: 2/05/2007 8:10pm

Originally Posted by El Macho

Hmmm, using wrestling lingo, a takedown is when you take the person down, controlling the descent/slam with the intention to keep him there. The goal is to take your opponent down and keep him/her there.

A throw is just the action of throwing your opponent, without necessarily looking to gain ground control. Your goal is to slam the **** out of your opponent first. Whether or not you follow it to the ground, that will be up to you and the circumstances.

I may be wrong, so please somebody with more knowledge of wrestling correct me on this. I believe that under wrestling rules, you are expected to control your opponent's body and control the descent. Just picking him up and letting him drop like a bag of potatoes will get you penalized.

With a throw (as I understand it from Judo), you are not restrained by that rule. You lift/pick him and throw him hard to end the fight.

In the middle of a fight/bout, the distinction is not that clear, but from a technical point of view, that's the difference between a takedown and a throw.

You have t3h c0rr3ct on this. At least as far as what I mean by takedown.