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  1. DAYoung is offline
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    Crouching Philosopher, Hidden Philosopher

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    Posted On:
    2/09/2007 8:10pm

    supporting member
     Style: n/a (ex-Karate)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Are you inferring this from this post, or another one? I ask because my previous post doesn't seem to suggest he sees it as relaxation, so much as relaxing the arms during explosive movements (as I once would've done during karate).
    Martial Arts and Philosophy: Beating and Nothingness
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  2. Mr. Mantis is offline
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    One Ambulance, Eleven Cops...

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    Posted On:
    2/09/2007 9:17pm

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     Style: Kung Fu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DAYoung
    (you can't stay rigid for half an hour).
    You may not, but I have.
    “We are surrounded by warships and don’t have time to talk. Please pray for us.” — One Somali Pirate.
  3. DAYoung is offline
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    Crouching Philosopher, Hidden Philosopher

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    Posted On:
    2/09/2007 9:24pm

    supporting member
     Style: n/a (ex-Karate)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr_Mantis
    You may not, but I have.
    Some of us don't have such readily available pharmaceuticals.
    Martial Arts and Philosophy: Beating and Nothingness
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  4. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    2/09/2007 11:02pm

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     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Cullion
    1) By Omar's definition 'silk reeling' is external

    2) A stable of fighters trained in what you call 'internal' but omar would call 'external' exercises who cleaned up in San Shou/San Da has already occurred on at least two continents.


    1. Yes and no. The way it's generally defined, yes. Those spirally movements most Chen people like to show off are, withing the defiition I work with, external.

    2. Yes. This time without qualification.

    See I am much more clear on what is or is not internal. I have a working defnition and it's not vague or abtruse or anything. I also am not uppity about it and don't really care if a bunch of "external" Taiji players are cleaning up the competition. To me, "internal" work is really high level stuff and just having the label of an internal style doesn't mean anything. So far, in I dunno....15 or so years of bopping around the CMA world, I'd say I have only met 2 or 3 individuals who have what I consider "internal skills". Not schools.....individual people. I was thinking just today that there needs to be a distinction between "internal STYLES" and "internal SKILLS" as the two things are only related by slight correlation but either one can be found independantly of the other.

    I don't find the disctinctions haveing to do with relaxation and softness or obvious silk reeling to be usefull. Those are all things commonly found in many strictly external styles. Take Tongbei for instance. It's a totally soft style using little tension, open joints and nice easy exansiveness is stressed from day one. They have spirally exercises much like typical chen style and all that good stuff. They were also around back when the term "internal" was coined by Sun Lutang but neither he nor any of his contemporaries saw any of the important commponalities that they saw in Bagua, Taiji and Xingyi. If you use those kind of, what I say are external, characteristics, then the term becomes useless. There's no point in making the disctinction any more.

    Quote Originally Posted by [B
    Tomas Drgon[/B]] My main point that is not tangential is that the internal/external dichotomy is artificial.
    Almost anything worth going deep in will end up presenting a lot of questions where the answer is, "Yes...or no....depending on how you look at it." I don't think the question of artificiality is a good one. The question that should be asked is what I was just getting at above there, "Is this distinction useful." That's all this is really. It's a division of martial arts into two groups, "this" and "that". We do it all the time. We start when we are born and shortly after being slapped by the doctor we come to this realization that we can divide the world into "me" and "not me" and then we go on from there. Some distinctions are useful. Some are not.

    BJJ black belt and internal martial arts "master" Tim Cartnell says that the distinction is not usefull but when he does make it, he appears to use what I call external characteristics to defie it. (relaxatio, softess, effortlessness ....)

    I think it was Adam Hsu who I read says that the true disctinction is not between internal and external arts but between high and low level skill. ie. "internal" is what happens in ANY art at the highest levels. (that's closer to my funtional definition)

    Some other teachers, I think Cullios is like this, simply igore the idea altogether and focus on the technical side of things.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
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  5. wackamole is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/10/2007 12:13am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Omar when you say , intent leads the qi, what do you mean by qi?

    If it's something that "can't be measured" how can you say if someone has it or not?

    What about that feeling in zhan zhuang when the arms move in rhythm with the breathing. Would you call that the qi?
  6. Omar is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/10/2007 2:08am

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     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by wackamole
    Omar when you say , intent leads the qi, what do you mean by qi?
    I didn't say that. Ask someone else.

    If it's something that "can't be measured" how can you say if someone has it or not?
    You can make a subjective judgement based on your years of proffesional training and decades of experience in the field. I suggest you ask this same question of psychologists, professional coaches i variuous fields, music teachers and really people in education. As was pointed out, technically they can be measured, just not in a numerical fasion. People create ways of testing for creativity, spacial conceptuality, coolness under pressure and more. Musicians make evaluations about peoples sense of rythmn, ability to cooperate or something as vague as "good jazz" and despite the complete lack of any scientific method for "good jazz", proffessionals in the field can still make independant evaluations and agree with each others. As an ESL teacher I can say with great confidence that certain students are percocious, disruptive, cooperative, motivated or talented....even thought these things "can't be measured" in any conventional way.

    The question is really kind of stupid in my opinion. It is just people being obstinant because there's a couple words they don't know and because the jargon is foreign. This sort of thing is the internet equivalent of kids seeing me practice in the park and making Bruce Lee noises while they strike Karate Kid poses and laugh at each other......hhhurrr...he said "qi"....heheheheh....yeah.

    Bite me.

    What about that feeling in zhan zhuang when the arms move in rhythm with the breathing. Would you call that the qi?
    I don't know about any kind of sinchronized arm waving. Don't really care. The question is not USEFUL. It's a distraction and not related to my own practice.

    Don't make the mistake of thinking that because I am out here providing explanations for a foreign paradigm that you and I share similar paradigms or that I even do any zhan zhuang, find the same use for it or spend my days navel gazing. Talking about qi IS a waste of time. The word comes up in the jargon occasionally but there's really no reason to dwell on it. Funny thing is, I see FAAAAAAAAR more discussion of it on Bullshido than I do at emptyflower which is a board devoted to IMA.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
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    http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Uepo9ahg-M

    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  7. wackamole is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/10/2007 2:43am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Omar,

    Sorry, you said, "intention harmonizes with the qi."

    I don't navel gaze. I spar, with contact in judo, FMA and sometimes kickboxing.

    And FYI, Hatsuo Royama credits his zhan zhuang training (from yiquan/taikiken) with helping his tournament career. In kyokushin. As does one of the current champs, Hajime Kazumi. http://taikiken.blogspot.com/2006/12/hajime-kazumi.html

    I don't know if you've met any Japanese kyokushin players, but they are about the farthest thing from navel gazing hippies as you are likely to meet.

    Maybe you should re-examine your assumptions about what is useful and what isn't.
    Last edited by wackamole; 2/10/2007 3:00am at .
  8. Omar is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/10/2007 3:36am

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     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    orry, you said, "intention harmonizes with the qi."
    I was quoting. I trying to explain the idea of the 6 harmonies, that's what it says in our lines version. It's just a variation on a theme. Getting too caught up on what specifically harmonizes with what is a distraction. The specific details of this leading that and that harmonizing with this is just a poetic way of describing a wholistic process where everything harmonizes with everything. Intention, strength, qi, heat...whatever else you add to the list. It all works together. That's the importat point. I really do believe that involving the theoretical processes of it all is about as useful as thinking about how the red blood cells carry the oxygen to the tissues.

    Intention is important. Intention is to the other internal parts what breathing is to the supposedly autonomic processes of the body. It's a bridge. You CAN focus your intention. Anyone can. It's not mystical or outside of the experience of the average person. Everything else flows from there.

    And FYI, Hatsuo Royama credits his zhan zhuang training (from yiquan/taikiken) with helping his tournament career. In kyokushin. As does one of the current champs, Hajime Kazumi.
    I am well aware of the place that zhan zhuang has in the practice of many fighting martial artists. It is not a big part of MY practice which is mainly just BAJI!!! and Taijiquan. And when I have egaged in the practice, it was made very clear to me that getting caught up in a "qi feeling" was a distraction and not coducive to what I hoped to accomplish with the practice. Before you know it you are fantasizig all sorts of stuff. Are you doing a martial zhuang or a health zhuag? What is the intention behind the zhuang? More than that, this is not the place to even get into that sort of discussion. It won't go anywhere. All you're going to get on Bullshido for that sort of thing is ridicule ad without meeting face to face I have absolutely NO way to tell if you have any sort of martially relevant zhan zhuang practice or if it is just so much mental masturbation. The only way to do that would be through crossing hands and then I could feel what kind of gongfu you've got. It's hard enough just getting the Sinophobes to unbunch their panties because somebody said "qi" and now they've got the giggles.
    Fighting evil and upholding justice in blue silk pajamas baby!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=UGaYD_wcaIg

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    Bah!!! Puny Humans.


  9. wackamole is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/10/2007 4:12am


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Omar,
    Thanks for your clarification.

    You know, the Sinophobes don't really bother me anymore. It's all pretty amusing.
  10. meataxe is offline
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    International Man of Pancakes

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    Posted On:
    2/10/2007 5:22pm


     Style: Wu style tcc+bjj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't think there can be any consensus on the definition of "internal". There were a bunch of posters who deem the internal/external irrelevant, a few who look to old definitions, a few who (IMHO) just repeat typical IMA bullshido and then there is Omar. I can't really agree or disagree with Omar--his definition seems well formulated for him, but doesn't relate for me.
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