Internal Martial Arts

[meataxe]

Fun footnote. A couple of our guys recently came back from a competition in Hong Kong (just forms). Somebody came on stage to demonstrate no-touch chi miracles and one of the audience members heckled them by shouting out "This is bullshit!" over and over again.

It wasn't no-touch, exactly. The self-described Yang-style performer in question would get a dozen acolytes to line up in veritable chi-train. The performer would twitch a little and the congo line would go flying, Keystone cops style.

It was an uncomfortable moment when the heckler walked up on stage, but I think the audience of HK TCC fans were silently pleased that someone at least said something. (At least I was.) A more damning response came from Yang Zhen Duo, the head of the Yang family. I watched him while the audience gave some polite applause--he just sat there, expressionless and dead still, refusing to offer any acknowledgment whatsoever.

[Bang!]

Awesome. I mean horrifying. I mean awesome.

[billy sol hurok]

Pollock was a good painter, because his artworks afford good aesthetic experiences (to those able to appreciate their artistic value). However, his works do not possess as much artistic value as those of Matisse or Picasso, whose works offer significantly more rewarding experiences.

To you, perhaps.

We might start by asking: Which Matisse? Which Pollock?

Anyway, they've got a big honkin one prominently displayed at the newly remodeled MOMA in NY:



Sucker's like 9x17. It's in this soaring, three-story atrium.

I preferred this one:



/hijack, sorry

[Bang!]

Ok dudes. I'm going to have ask you this question. Can you please list what are the main external and internal martials? I keep fucking racking my head trying to follow up this converstation.

So far I can finally understand Tai Chi is internal, but what about Bagua, Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut, WC, 5 Animals, S/N Mantis? Sorry for the derail, but I'm sure this will answer questions for many (and since as far as my search-fu is concerned, hasn't been answered before.)

Thanks - El Mucho Macho.

Okay, once again: Going by the guy who created the styles, taiji xing yi and bagua are internal. Everything else sucks. It's honestly just an arbitrary term -- good to know for general discussions, unnecessary baggage for everything else.

[Omar]

What he said except the guy didn't create the styles. He coined the term. Traditionally it has only been the 3 you mentioned:

-Taiji
-Bagua
-Xingyi

Since then a couple others have been more or less added to the list in traditional circles but they are all styles that are derivative of those three including but not limited to:

- Yiquan (derived from Xingyi)
- Liu He Ba Fa (not sure why it gets credit but it's like a Taiji/bagua blend)
- Ziranmen (Almost the same as Bagua)
- Yiliquan (Sam's art is Taiji derived)

Mostly just other arts that evolved out of those 3. That's why although most webheads say Baji is internal, I do not agree. It's just people responding to the "everything else sucks" prejudice that Monkey just alluded to.

[Tomas Drgon]

Ok dudes. I'm going to have ask you this question. Can you please list what are the main external and internal martials? I keep fucking racking my head trying to follow up this converstation.

So far I can finally understand Tai Chi is internal, but what about Bagua, Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut, WC, 5 Animals, S/N Mantis? Sorry for the derail, but I'm sure this will answer questions for many (and since as far as my search-fu is concerned, hasn't been answered before.)

Thanks - El Mucho Macho.

Let me cloud it a bit more: each of them has both internal and external components.
Bagua is largely internal. Hung Ga is initially mostly external. Choy Lay Fut is more internal than Hung Ga. WC is based on an internal art, but most of what you see is external. In 5 animals it depends on the animal. Mantis is more internal than Hung Ga.

How do I know this you ask...



I don't. I just made it up. Since nobody can really define purely internal and purely external aspects, anything that you build on the two terms (internal/external) will be arbitrary.

Tomas

[Bang!]

Whoops, mis-spoke there -- I meant that Sun Lu Tang dubbed the styles . . .

[Mr. Mantis]

This is a simplistic way to put this:
The main principles in anything considered "internal" are breathing and a lack of tension in the joints for the most part. Be relaxed. The soft. The Yin.

The main principle in anything considered "external" is tension, the hard, the Yang.

CMA is dominated by the philosophy of the yin/yang, and the systems have both within them. The 3 Omar mentioned are the big 3 internal styles, you could guess anything else you come across will be external.

I also tend to think that arts with Buddhist background are external, where taoist foundations are internal.

[Omar]

.... nobody can really define purely internal and purely external aspects, anything that you build on the two terms (internal/external) will be arbitrary.

Tomas

I think I just did. It's just that no one wants to accept the definition. I don't know why it's so hard to follow.

ANYTHING AT ALL relating to the following:

-posture
-structure
-body mechanics
-breathing patterns
-anything else that you can measure with instruments and draw pictures of

....is EXTERNAL.

The intangibles such as:

-intent
-presence
-"heart"
-"qi"
-unity of purpose
-anything else that is not measurable and exists only....as part of your own internal world......

...is INTERNAL

This stuff is spelled out pretty clearly by Sun Lutang and the other people in his circle who coined the term.

....How do I know this you ask...



I don't. I just made it up. ...

The difference between our view here is that I do this. How do I know this you ask...

Because I've read a bunch of the writings of that era, studied a bunch of Chinese history, learned the language and do a lot of translation with a special emphasis on CMA terminology and am a lineage holder in both internal and external styles and have spent many hours being instructed one on one on this very subject. That's why I opened my discourse on this thread with 2 clear definitions, the historical and the functional. My views on this particular subject are not based on my impressions and observations but on time spent formally studying exactly this. My Shifu is a recognized master of all 3 of the main internal styles + Baji. He often contrasts Baji (external) to Taiji (internal) and discusses how even an external style like Baji could be made internal but then that comes back to what exactly defines the ideas.

So in keeping with what I have learned on this subject:

This is a simplistic way to put this:
The main principles in anything considered "internal" are breathing and a lack of tension in the joints for the most part. Be relaxed. The soft. The Yin.

The main principle in anything considered "external" is tension, the hard, the Yang.

Doesn't match with the literature on the funtional aspect OR the historical definitions. These ideas are the result of a lot of later folks trying to jump on the internal bandwagon. The defining phrase of Taijiquan, "gang rou xiang ji" means "the perfect interaction of HARD and soft". Boiling it down to those kinds of EXTERNAL qualities does a disservice to pretty much everyone else. Better practitioners of ALL styles from ALL countries tend to be pretty soft and relaxed when they get more experience.

CMA is dominated by the philosophy of the yin/yang, and the systems have both within them. The 3 Omar mentioned are the big 3 internal styles, you could guess anything else you come across will be external.

I also tend to think that arts with Buddhist background are external, where taoist foundations are internal.

This, OTOH, fits into the "historical" definition of terms and I can go along with this one. It does have a historic precedent in terms of the evolution of the jargon.

[DAYoung]

To you, perhaps.

We might start by asking: Which Matisse? Which Pollock?

Anyway, they've got a big honkin one prominently displayed at the newly remodeled MOMA in NY:



Sucker's like 9x17. It's in this soaring, three-story atrium.

I preferred this one:



/hijack, sorry

All Matisse.

Even his first works in his sickbed.