Internal Martial Arts

**Omar** · Posted On: 2/07/2007 8:22pm

Originally Posted by EmetShamash

I just want to throw out another translation of the last three harmonies. Shen is mandarin for what can be translated as heart, mind, and spirit.

INTERNAL:
Mind leads Intent
Intent leads Blood
Blood leads Chi

(from: http://www.plumpub.com/info/knotebook/boxliuhe.htm)

Originally Posted by EmetShamash

Well that is what the Chinese people around me said... it is not the same as the organs the brain and heart. From what I have been told shen can be translated all three ways and still be correct because there is no real direct English translation.

Don't know if he deleted his post himself of was deleted by mods but what Dale said was 100% correct. Shen and Xin are different things with different words. "Shen" can NOT be translated as "heart, mind, spirit". Of those 3 it can only be translated as "spirit". You are suffering from what is called a "language barrier" :angry2: Your Chinese friends either didn't understand the question or the context or just didn't enough to be precise enough for this context.

As to the translation you quoted above, like I said, the specifics on the inner 3 vary from school to school. This is not a translation issue. They are often different in the Chinese as well. They are alway abstract but specifics vary even in Chinese.

Again since Dale's post is gone now:

heart - xin
mind - yi
spirit -shen

The words "heart" and "mind" are often both used to refer to "xin". That's what your Chinese friends were getting at about it not being neccesarily the physical organ that pumps blood BUT "shen" never means that. Also this is why "mind" is a really really bad translators choice in this context. It is vague as it could refer to either xin OR yi. A better choice for "yi" is "intention" or "intent". No room for confusion that way.

**Tom Kagan** · Posted On: 2/07/2007 8:32pm

Originally Posted by Cullion

Seen people at the more advanced stages of WC training do something simillar.

[sarcasm]
DO'H! I knew it! There really was a legit reason behind why I know WTF is Jin Choi firsthand.

[/sarcasm]

**Tomas Drgon** · Posted On: 2/07/2007 9:39pm

Originally Posted by Tom Kagan

True, but soreness and trembling doesn't compare to being barely able to walk for 2 days after you've done three full cycles of Jin Choi (about 3x20 yards up and back).

The thing is: you can train the wrongest way possible and still get pretty exhausted.
I remember doing splitting and drilling drills in hsing-i, up and down the gym for what 45 minutes. I'm not sure how usefull these were, I have really no way to find out.
In my flaky years I trained qigong with a chinese guy, we did 1 hr standing meditations.
It was interesting and all, but I'm not sure it was that useful.

I think the argument is not whether there is internal stylists that can fight, but rather whether internal training methods are optimal methods to get you there.

(I think I have posted this already somewhere, so I may be plagiarizing myself here...)

This is from my limited knowledge of sport physiology:
There is your "target activity": boxing, wrestling, basketball, whatever.
There is your "technical stereotype", one movement or a set of movements isolated from your target activity.
And there is your "dynamic stereotype" which is the learned ability of your brain to string together the various "technical stereotypes" into a thread of your target activity.

In some sports the technical stereotype is very close to the dynamic stereotype and the target activity. Shot put, dash, high jump, long jump for example. But with activities that involve interrogation of a complex terrain or an opponent the dynamic stereotype is way more complex than the technical stereotype.

My problem with "internal" training is that it tends to overtrain the "technical stereotype" while neglecting the "dynamic stereotype".

Tomas

**Torakaka** · Posted On: 2/07/2007 9:43pm

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=22177

**Tom Kagan** · Posted On: 2/07/2007 9:59pm

Originally Posted by Kidspatula

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=22177

I absolutely agree with every point made by almost everyone who posted in that thread.

Internal arts are gay. It's not "the gayest gay sport there is", however. That honor is, as of yet, not been won by a CMA regardless of CMA's problems with martial silliness and gayness.

:smile:

**Teh El Macho** · Posted On: 2/07/2007 10:05pm

Is that why that thread was necromanced????

**meataxe** · Posted On: 2/07/2007 11:05pm

The Internal / External dichotomy strikes me as the typical distinction about what the *other* guy is doing wrong. "Judo is no good, it's just brute strength."

The distinction most commonly trotted out is the one about using the hips. "____ is better because we use the power of the hips." (Insert name of your martial art in the blank.)

**Bang!** · Posted On: 2/07/2007 11:09pm

Mambo.

**Omar** · Posted On: 2/08/2007 3:25am

Originally Posted by meataxe

The Internal / External dichotomy strikes me as the typical distinction about what the *other* guy is doing wrong. "Judo is no good, it's just brute strength."

The distinction most commonly trotted out is the one about using the hips. "____ is better because we use the power of the hips." (Insert name of your martial art in the blank.)

Note that in my rather lengthy rundown of how "internal" is actually defined not withing the context of BBS boards and google but rather within the context that the term was actually created and worked out inside China where the idea came from......

ANYTHING to do with the HIP is absolutely and completely explicitly EXTERNAL.

Once again folks:

EXTERNAL 3 Harmonies as outlined by Sun Lutang and a bazillion other famous dudes....

Hands - Feet
Elbows - Knees
HIPS - Shoulders

Those are all EXTERNAL details even within the context of various secret documents and transmissions from all the various grand poobilydahdah's of any of the various branches of Taiji, Xingyi or Bagua or any other so-called "internal" arts. Just like the other thread where someone (Kat or Anna?) was asking why you would want to aspire to be part of the shitty amateurish, "just for fun" MA crowd, why would you want to look to a bunch of pimplyfaced web-nerds who have never trained the stuff, never read the classics studied the history and are basically just saying, "This dude I don't know who has a web page said......" for your info on really esoteric aspects of CMA?

**Tomas Drgon** · Posted On: 2/08/2007 9:33am

Originally Posted by Omar

ANYTHING to do with the HIP is absolutely and completely explicitly EXTERNAL.

Once again folks:

EXTERNAL 3 Harmonies as outlined by Sun Lutang and a bazillion other famous dudes....

Hands - Feet
Elbows - Knees
HIPS - Shoulders

Those are all EXTERNAL details even within the context of various secret documents and transmissions from all the various grand poobilydahdah's of any of the various branches of Taiji, Xingyi or Bagua or any other so-called "internal" arts.

You have pretty much summed up the problems of the "internal" approach.
The terms are either vague, not defined at all, or purely metaphorical and therefore making any rational discussion difficult.
Each self appointed grand master has his own terms and his own metaphors.

You may as well argue whether Jackson Pollock was a good painter or a bad painter.

Tomas