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  1. JohnKenner is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/29/2012 9:51am


     Style: Boxing, Judo, Kenpo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tangshou View Post
    My apologies for breaking out this crusty old thread that you all wish were only a distant memory.
    My head hurts from reading this. Okay, I know as much about Kung Fu as any kid who grew up watch Jackie Chan and Jet Li.

    Quote Originally Posted by tangshou View Post
    I'm not going to go into what those are here but let's say they "cultivate the proper flow of qi." No I'm not going to try to define what that means.
    You can't define it, or don't want to get into defining it here? Because if its can't, you're theory seems damn thin already.

    Quote Originally Posted by tangshou View Post
    The difference is that pure internal styles (taiji, bagua, xingyi) and their derivatives never violate these rules.
    Again, if you're not so sure on the qi thing, then how are you sure that they do or don't violate the rules?

    Quote Originally Posted by tangshou View Post
    Whereas external styles allow for any movement, but follow the internal rules in most cases.
    Oh, I get it, because I box I somehow am deprived of proper qi because I rather knock someone's teeth out. Gotcha.

    Quote Originally Posted by tangshou View Post
    I'm not saying I believe this; I don't have nearly enough experience to know if it's true. It's just an idea that's been floating in my head for a while. Thoughts?
    Yes, train more brother.
  2. tangshou is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/29/2012 10:29am


     Style: Gongfu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Haha, OK Johny K. It's both can't define it and don't want to get into it. Yes, my theory is thin. However, I don't think the particular rules are relevant at this point, or whether the rules are defined in terms of qi or visible physical movement.

    Think of it this way. Imagine someone introducing a new technique to a style. If it were an external style someone might say "That works, we could do that." Or if they are closed minded maybe, "Nope, my teacher didn't show me that." However, an internal stylist might say, "While that movement is interesting, it violates article 9, principle VI, section 3b of the Tai Chi Code. So though it might work in a fight, and you could use it. It can never be considered part of Tai Chi." I'm also suggesting that the internal styles might use a same or similar set of principles of movement.
  3. Chili Pepper is online now
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    Posted On:
    3/29/2012 10:40am


     Style: Siling Labuyo Arnis

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tangshou View Post
    Haha, OK Johny K. It's both can't define it and don't want to get into it. Yes, my theory is thin. However, I don't think the particular rules are relevant at this point, or whether the rules are defined in terms of qi or visible physical movement.
    I'd say until you can define it, you really have nothing to talk about. Otherwise, we're arguing whether more angels can dance on the head of a pin by using bagua instead of tai-chi.

    However, an internal stylist might say, "While that movement is interesting, it violates article 9, principle VI, section 3b of the Tai Chi Code. So though it might work in a fight, and you could use it. It can never be considered part of Tai Chi."
    I would suggest that you haven't hung around with enough tai chi stylists. If what you were saying were true, there would be a lot more consensus from them on what is or is not correct. In fact, they're pretty easy to rile up when it comes to discussions of "correct" movement.
  4. tangshou is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/29/2012 11:21am


     Style: Gongfu

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chili Pepper View Post
    I'd say until you can define it, you really have nothing to talk about. Otherwise, we're arguing whether more angels can dance on the head of a pin by using bagua instead of tai-chi.
    I don't have a fully developed theory. I'm throwing out a general idea to see if anyone feels there may be some truth to it. I don't think that's the same as nothing to talk about.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chili Pepper View Post
    I would suggest that you haven't hung around with enough tai chi stylists. If what you were saying were true, there would be a lot more consensus from them on what is or is not correct. In fact, they're pretty easy to rile up when it comes to discussions of "correct" movement.
    That very well may be true. I'd bet that they could still agree on many more fundamental principles even if they argue about some details. Or my theory could be completely wrong. I'm open to that. I'd like to hear from some practitioners to see if there may be some truth to it.
  5. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/29/2012 11:28am

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     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by tangshou View Post
    Haha, OK Johny K. It's both can't define it and don't want to get into it. Yes, my theory is thin. However, I don't think the particular rules are relevant at this point, or whether the rules are defined in terms of qi or visible physical movement.

    Think of it this way. Imagine someone introducing a new technique to a style. If it were an external style someone might say "That works, we could do that." Or if they are closed minded maybe, "Nope, my teacher didn't show me that." However, an internal stylist might say, "While that movement is interesting, it violates article 9, principle VI, section 3b of the Tai Chi Code. So though it might work in a fight, and you could use it. It can never be considered part of Tai Chi." I'm also suggesting that the internal styles might use a same or similar set of principles of movement.
    What you are doing is not reading the hundreds, if not thousands, of post on this very subject. You theory, which you have yet to full define, is sounding veryold.


    On this board internal and external achieve the exact same results in a different fashion. Many, not all, do not believe in the separation of the two.
  6. tangshou is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/29/2012 11:16pm


     Style: Gongfu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake View Post
    What you are doing is not reading the hundreds, if not thousands, of post on this very subject. You theory, which you have yet to full define, is sounding veryold.

    On this board internal and external achieve the exact same results in a different fashion. Many, not all, do not believe in the separation of the two.
    I've never seen this idea before, on this thread or any other one I've read. I have not read hundreds of threads though. If you say you've heard this idea before, that's news to me. Thanks.

    I agree the general consensus is that the difference comes down to training methodology, but lead to the same end result. Those who disagree tend to be internal practitioners who think there's some level that can't be reached by the external arts. I was introducing this as an alternative to these 2 views that I haven't seen before.
  7. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    3/30/2012 6:53am

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     Style: xingyi

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Okay, you are not getting my point. Using different WORDS doesn't make a new theory.
    Quote Originally Posted by tangshou View Post

    I'd like to propose a definition of internal arts that I've never heard before. Internal arts are those which strictly follow certain rules of motion.
    This is the same as saying that delivery structure is important.

    I'm not going to go into what those are here but let's say they "cultivate the proper flow of qi."
    This is the same as saying that certain structures help or hinder chi flow.

    No I'm not going to try to define what that means. Now as I think we can all agree most 'external' styles will follow these same rules of motion. The difference is that pure internal styles (taiji, bagua, xingyi) and their derivatives never violate these rules.
    Again, this is arguing structure over attempting.

    Whereas external styles allow for any movement, but follow the internal rules in most cases.
    This is the structure and principle vs. gross motor skill argument.

    Another way to say this might be that internal styles move according to rules which maximize some goal (qi flow, natural motion, woo, etc.) and aim to be effective as a martial art given that restriction.[/quote] This is what we call over emphasis on a specific structure to fulfil a goal. Xingyi working on the drop step to harness fajing.

    External arts tend to use the same rules as internal arts, but will prioritize kicking ass over following rules of movement.
    We are back to structure priority.
    One could then potentially measure a degree to which a style is internal vs. external by how often they violate the internal principles.
    Yes, this is an age old debate also found in wing chun.

    So, unless you have a better explanation you basically reworded the structure/movement vs. doing /correcting argument.
  8. tangshou is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/30/2012 9:33am


     Style: Gongfu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You are right. I was not getting your point. I was thinking mostly of structure but I didn't want to limit the discussion to structure because there might be something else.

    I think I understand you much better now but I want to clarify something. It seems you are talking about training methodology. Getting the structure right then learning how to hurt someone with it vs. getting the basic movement right and improving the structure over time. Over time these two paths lead to the same end of having correct structure and being able to use it. Is this what you mean? Because I am not talking about training, but about which structures and movements are 'allowed' in the style. I'm happy to explain more but I don't want to go off on a tangent if I've misunderstood you again.
  9. Cullion is offline
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    Posted On:
    4/05/2012 8:42pm

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     Style: Tai Chi

    1
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    tangshou. i would like u to internalise a principle. i would like u, just before you type a thought, to count to 10 and try and think of a way of expressing it with fewer words.

    thank u.
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  10. taijidude is offline

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    Posted On:
    4/13/2012 9:19pm


     Style: tai chi chuan, poekoelan

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This has been a really enlightening discussion. I'm curious, of the guys who do "internal" arts, do you actually practice fa jin, like Lohan movements? And of the guys who practice "external", do you practice anything similar?
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