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  1. Mr. Donkeypenis is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/12/2002 8:56am


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I disagree, Asia. Yes, Judo is an important aspect and a fantastic style, but the newaza pales in comparison to the way BJJ is done.

    After 6 months of Shooto/BJJ,, I managed to tap a Judo 1st degree black belt twice.

    I've personally seen BJJ used WAY more often in real situations than judo.

    Quote: "The majority of BJJ players are bandwagon jumpers. They learn the basics then go out and get their buts kicked, tales of 6 month BJJ gusy going out and kicking everyones butt have been LIES as far as I've seen. The students that have stuck around have had better results. The majority of the Judo players tend to stay with it for a while."

    This is false. Many people that train BJJ only do it for a short time because they can't hang with the rest of the class, get discouraged, and give up. The conditioning is also MUCH harder than most so-called martial arts schools making it even more frustating for them. It's tough for those who are black belt, nth degrees from other places that get spanked by white belts; a total ego crusher so they make excuses. I did too for a little while till I wised up. I'm glad it didn't take too long. Bottom line: Those aren't lies. I've seen guys with 6 months of training school these so-called blackbelts.

    Quote: "Myself and several others have raised the issue that newaza isn't a good idea for soldiers in full battle rattle. "

    And that silly line-training crap was? That stuff was laughable. I remember seeing demonstrations of it and I nearly pissed myself laughing. Fake karate + nut grabs. Totally stupid. I'd take BJJ any day over that stuff.

    Quote: "USMC has been looking into aspects of okinawan MA and Judo. All the combatives programs are still undergoing some changes sense they been implemented. "

    You may not know this, being in the Army, but in the USMC they have already overhauled their line-training (thank God) and are training them in a mix of kickboxing, BJJ, and other styles in a quickie martial art stlye for boot camp. A much better alternative in my opinion.





    A.K.A MEAT
  2. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/12/2002 8:59am

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     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The ARMY is the only really incoporating BJJ, which I might had many pple disagree with. I am a ARMY combatives instructor. Myself and several others have raised the issue that newaza isn't a good idea for soldiers in full battle rattle. USMC has been looking into aspects of okinawan MA and Judo. All the combatives programs are still undergoing some changes sense they been implemented. The AF has also started some more MA training, not exactly sure what they are doing but they are hiring out to civilian instructors in Florida. From the segement on the training it seems pretty hard core. They train in a classroom/dojo enviorment then have practical exercises in a field enviorment.
    My last station (before I ETS'd) was Hunter Army Airfield, and I've actually taught classes in BJJ there for my soldiers, showing them the guard (got a few laughs), guard passes, chokes, etc.

    If you're an unarmed combat instructor, then you'd know the Army's cirriculum (Judo based), especially for IET, is garbage. I know, because I went through it in '93.

    As far as the USMC goes, my little brother (now training for his first KOTC fight, on Team 4 Corners) and everyone he knew trained in Muay Thai when he was a "Jarhead". They'd even go into town in Okinawa and destroy the locals in open tournament competitions. I don't think they'd use an Okinawan martial art unless they're starting to train Marines to try and kick people driving troop carriers.

    Judo is a sport art. It was concieved as a sport art and has existed as a sport art for so long that getting practical usage of it for combat, outside of a few throws, would be like trying to squeeze a glass of orange juice from an orange that had been run over by a truck.

    As far as the Army goes, and you should know this better than anyone, it's BJJ training isn't designed to teach a soldier how to win the UFC; it's designed to teach him how to fight from the ground, kill the enemy, and get back on his feet.

    What unit are you in Asia? What command? TRADOC?
  3. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/12/2002 9:40am

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     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Phrost,

    I am in 1-4 INF, just did a ITT COT form Baumholder where i was at 1ad2bde Hq. I am OPFOR now I get to be the BAD GUY!!!!! Whats really cool is that we don't wear BDUs we wear BLACKS and when we are off post most Germans think we are the polizei equalvialent to SWAT!


    >If you're an unarmed combat instructor, then you'd know the Army's cirriculum (Judo based), especially for IET, is garbage. I know, because I went through it in '93

    Phorst I think you are a bit confused. The army cirriculum at that time was Karate and TKD based mostly and we all know you learn CRAP during Basic. The idea now is to train the soldiers at there permanent duty station. Like in Baumholder it was part of the PT schedule. Here it is more sporatic until I can get a good program down that doesn't conflict with the rotation duties.

    I ask this Phrost, Did were you ever in a hostile situation in the army? Like I said here my last development we had to deal with a lot of riots. We couldn't just SHOOT pple, you remember ROE, and there were times we had to take detainees, especially if we suspected them of instigation more than riots. The pple knew you couldn't shoot them, hell they would quite ROE back at you, but you still had to go in. Tell me how BJJ would have helped. It didn't and I DID use judo, as well as other things on some unruly detainees. (Sidenote I gave props to an MP that shoot a beanbag at a guy who tried to act docile then picked up a rock and tried to bash the guys head in. The MP got in a bit of trouble, yes brass still gets their head stuck up their asses, but the riot didn't last long after that.)


    >Whys the army training in only bjj and Okinowa MA and judo. They should be training in JKD Concepts also, along with BJJ, to even it up

    You didn't read and comphrened what I wrote. The ARMY is using basic BJJ the USMC is doing Okinawa MA and Judo. Pple much higher up than me decide what gets trained.

    >Yes, Judo is an important aspect and a fantastic style, but the newaza pales in comparison to the way BJJ is done

    I agree with you there but NEWAZA is not what you want a soldier to focus on.

    >Those aren't lies. I've seen guys with 6 months of training school these so-called blackbelts.

    You may well have, I give you the benefit of the doubt, but I have YET to see it. The BJJ pple that put up a good fight are the ones that have been in it for awhile.


    >And that silly line-training crap was? That stuff was laughable. I remember seeing demonstrations of it and I nearly pissed myself laughing. Fake karate + nut grabs. Totally stupid. I'd take BJJ any day over that stuff.

    Err how OLD is your INFO. LINE was done away with awhile ago . What I listed was what was CURRENTLY being worked on. Like I said they are still being modified.


    >Judo is a sport art. It was concieved as a sport art and has existed as a sport art for so long that getting practical usage of it for combat, outside of a few throws, would be like trying to squeeze a glass of orange juice from an orange that had been run over by a truck

    I don't think you are seeing the full scope. Like many pple just see SPORT BJJ I think you been seeing mainly SPORT Judo. Kodokan Judo has has striking, grappling, atemi as part of it goshinjutsu (self defense methods) sense it was formed. And BJJ is fast going the way of the McDojo. So in a couple of years time we will be saying the same thing about BJJ.

    Personally I am more of a JJJ man. I would take that, especially Koryu JJ with some modification over both.




    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  4. SLJ is offline

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    Posted On:
    9/12/2002 10:03am

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If I trained for sport BJJ then I wouldn't be suprised when my balls got stamped on whilst I was performing an elaborate half gaurd sweep, I only use the realistic techniques and forget about the others.

    I have proved to myself that this is the best way to go because I have tapped Judo Blue/Brown/Black belts much heavier than me once we hit the floor.
    "You realise the transformations give a man enough strength to destroy a truck with his bare hands!?
    YOU HAVE BETRAYED ME, IN THE WORST POSSIBLE MANNER!!" - KiWarrior

    "Sport ? That kind of thing's not my bag baby!" - Sammy Franco

    "This system was developed with the help of notible BJJ fighter Ribbon Muchado." - "Sifu" Anthony Iglesias
  5. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/12/2002 10:40am

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you tapped them you are still doing SPORT. A real fight and self defense their is no tap.

    I've tapped many BJJ and Judo guys. Big deal. Shiai is A LOT different when there is more on the line. Going to the floor may work sometimes but wholely it is UNrealistic, especially in the military.

    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!




    Edited by - Asia on September 12 2002 10:42:01
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  6. 9chambers

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    Posted On:
    9/12/2002 12:12pm


     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Which styles of JJJ are most utalitarian?
  7. Phrost is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/12/2002 12:25pm

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     Guy Who Pays the Bills and Gets the Death Threats Style: MMA (Retired)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Phrost,

    I am in 1-4 INF, just did a ITT COT form Baumholder where i was at 1ad2bde Hq. I am OPFOR now I get to be the BAD GUY!!!!! Whats really cool is that we don't wear BDUs we wear BLACKS and when we are off post most Germans think we are the polizei equalvialent to SWAT!
    I hate you! I got to be OPFOR a few times, but not formally. When I was a private we did MOUT at AP hill and I actually got in trouble for "killing" too many of the other trainees. It wasn't my fault the dumbasses lined up like ducks outside the window I was sniping from!

    Then when I was stationed in Panama, a group of 8 of us completely decimated an entire batallion of Puerto Rican national guard, by walking right up to the front of their camp! I even got to radio their CP from their LPOP "todos estan muertos! HAHAHA", although I couldn't convince the OPFOR commander to let me tie the PR NG's Bn. Commander to the front of my HMMVW and stuff an apple in his mouth. :(

    Phorst I think you are a bit confused. The army cirriculum at that time was Karate and TKD based mostly and we all know you learn CRAP during Basic. The idea now is to train the soldiers at there permanent duty station. Like in Baumholder it was part of the PT schedule. Here it is more sporatic until I can get a good program down that doesn't conflict with the rotation duties.
    Well that's good to hear actually. I'd think that if one took Judo's throws, BJJ focused on killing and getting back on your feet ASAP, Muay Thai kicks/knees/elbows, and some CMA weapons skills (staff, Kwan-Dao), that it would make a better system for our soldiers. But I'm not an NCO anymore, just a lowly civilian, so I guess I can't say much.

    I ask this Phrost, Did were you ever in a hostile situation in the army? Like I said here my last development we had to deal with a lot of riots. We couldn't just SHOOT pple, you remember ROE, and there were times we had to take detainees, especially if we suspected them of instigation more than riots. The pple knew you couldn't shoot them, hell they would quite ROE back at you, but you still had to go in. Tell me how BJJ would have helped. It didn't and I DID use judo, as well as other things on some unruly detainees. (Sidenote I gave props to an MP that shoot a beanbag at a guy who tried to act docile then picked up a rock and tried to bash the guys head in. The MP got in a bit of trouble, yes brass still gets their head stuck up their asses, but the riot didn't last long after that.)
    ROE is bullshit. I always told my soldiers to do what they had to do in a situation and I'd cover their asses as best as I could. It's the same bullshit that had our Marines guarding Lebanon with empty magazines.

    Yes, I have seen action, but it was in SOUTHCOM and the rules in Latin America are a bit more relaxed you could say. I've taken fire, and fired back. Let me tell you, my M203 was my best friend.

    But I know what you're saying. I was there at the refugee camp in 94 when they rioted over not getting enough cigarettes and their $10M contract with Nico's cafe for catering wasn't making them happy. I saw one of our MPs get run over by a truck. I had rocks thrown at me, and saw them aim at the MP's shins under their riot shields. It took less than a month for all the MPs in Panama to have shiny new leg protection gear after that, and we all got riot control training.

    And yeah, standing grappling is probably your best friend in a situation like that, but if I ever get dragged to the ground I want BJJ skills for damn sure.

    I agree with you there but NEWAZA is not what you want a soldier to focus on.

    Personally I am more of a JJJ man. I would take that, especially Koryu JJ with some modification over both.
    I can agree with that. I think if JJJ incorporated better kicks and boxing style punches, it'd be a good system to teach soldiers. It's just a nasty, nasty martial art.
  8. PeedeeShaolin is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/12/2002 12:52pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Karate,

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you tapped them you are still doing SPORT. A real fight and self defense their is no tap.
    Thats a pretty stupid statement. Are you saying that he realy should have choked them until they died and not honored their surrender? Or actually broke his opponents arsm or legs? No offense Asia but I really dont thin you know anything about BJJ. You probably study more traditional arts and simply disagree with BJJ's whole outlook on real combat without testing it first.

    "Do not become entranced by impractical or useless movements. Do not be categorized as one who "Learns all there is to know about less and less until he ends up learning everything there is to know about nothing." -Ed Parker
    "All warfare is based on deception." -Sun Tzu, ca. 400BC


    Reverse punch Kiaii!!!
  9. Gezere is offline
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    Posted On:
    9/12/2002 1:06pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't really like BJJ I said it before the only reason I am exposed to it is because it is part of the Combatives program and BJJ guys come here to do seminars.

    I HAVE tested it and that is why I disagree. Like I said BJJ is NOT for me.

    Pple used BJJ and they are good. BUT like I said the guys that are good are the ones that trained for awhile. I keep hearing stories of pple doing 6 months of BJJ and going out and kicking ass. So far I haven't seen it.

    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
  10. Gezere is offline
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    My guns bigger than Scrapper's!

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    Posted On:
    9/12/2002 1:14pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kakutogi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Phrost,

    Then you would REALLY hate me if I tell you some of the COOL stuff we do. When I go out on a "KILL MISSION" with the RECON. I feel like SpecOps we do Air insertions, Night and Day. and get to out and KILL anything we find!!! It is BEAUTIFUL!!!!

    Our BN CDR, who was my former BDE XO that why I came here, is known for tottally DECIMATING the BLUFOR!!!!

    >ROE is bullshit. I always told my soldiers to do what they had to do in a situation and I'd cover their asses as best as I could. It's the same bullshit that had our Marines guarding Lebanon with empty magazines

    TELL ME ABOUT IT. There was an incident were a VERY Violent Detainee escaped from the holding facility. The alerted the whole base at 4 am so we can get accountablity for our soldiers and send out teams to find the guy. One of the orders was to take him ALIVE!!!!! I was like WTF!?!?!?! They even told us to but weapon status on GREEN!!!! That is BRASS WITH THERE HEAD UP THEIR ASSES!!! The guy ended up escaping and not being caught but I told my soldiers if they happen to ventilate the duy I would sand behind them 200%

    As far as ground skills. I do admit some is needed. But FOCUSING on mainly groud work is NOT good. Standing grappling is much better.

    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invinsible Asia) Emporer of Baji!!! THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE AGAINST THE UNITED AUSSIE FRONT!!
    ______
    Xiao Ao Jiang Hu Zhi Dong Fang Bu Bai (Laughing Proud Warrior Invincible Asia) Dark Emperor of Baji!!!

    RIP SOLDIER

    Didn't anyone ever tell him a fat man could never be a ninja
    -Gene, GODHAND

    You can't practice Judo just to win a Judo Match! You practice so that no matter what happens, you can win using Judo!
    The key to fighting two men at once is to be much tougher than both of them.
    -Daniel Tosh
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