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  1. ojgsxr6 is offline

    Dorkus Malorkus

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2007 8:00pm

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     Style: Boxing/BJJudo/Crossfit

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    For ever boxer who "wins" in the boxing ring using boxing, another loses. But the one who lost is not usually ridiculed as having an inferior methodology. I think that's purely because boxing, as a MA approach, is not out of balance.
    Finally, a new Zen Koan.
  2. Anna Kovacs is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/05/2007 8:44pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KungFuCowboy

    The kind of kungfu I am focused on doesnt' give **** all about winning rounds. It's all about putting the other dude on their ass in ONE ROUND.
    Oh man what a novel idea, because no one steps into the ring intending to do just that. We all like to drag it on as long as possible because we just love getting hit!

    While your at it, check out the latest MMA reels and count how many classic boxer jabs are thrown. Hardly fucking any.
    Thats because pretty much everyone in MMA, even the skilled strikers really aren't all that skilled with their hands comapred to say a boxer. Also 4 ounce gloves help encourage power shots even more.



    Here's the rock-paper-scissors on jabs.

    Lead leg kick > jab.

    You jab. I kick you in the ribs.
    You jab again. I step on your shin.
    You jab again and I slam into your full force so we are so close you can smell who I was in bed with last night.
    I'd wager I could help modify your opinion on the jab. If I jab you while you're kicking you're quite likely going to get knocked off balance and go stumbling backwards. This is not speculation. I can show a multitude of videos of myself doing this to people trying to kick me.


    Jabs are for feeling out your opponent and winning rounds. They are a BOXER's tool and when you remove the rules governing boxing their importance diminishes DRAMATICALLY.
    The importance diminishes because then people can rely on other things and having a well rounded game is more important then a sharp jab. The problem is most people in kickboxing and MMA dont have a sharp jab and thus couldnt rely on it in the first place. if they did have a sharp jab then they'd most likely dump chumply paying sports like kickboxing and MMA and go into boxing.


    Just to step back into your tiny little box for a moment, consider the finger jab. That's an extremely common technique in CMA. Now try to tell me why a finger jab is inferior to a regular jab.
    You mean this?




    Because you're depending on preciscion to take the place of force. I'm sure that works great if you hit them in the eye like you intend to, the problem is that hitting someone in the eye that's actively trying to hurt you really isnt as easy as people like to make it sound. Your targeting goes to **** and you honestly don't really think about preciscion placement.

    Contrasting that to a regular jab the regular jab is going to suck no matter where it hits you, if I hit you in the forehead it's going to snap your head back and throw you off balance, if I hit you in the nose it's going to deliver more crushing force then the finger jab, if I hit you in the chin then it's possible to knock someone out or if nothing else jack up their jaw.

    The finger jab is dependant on hitting exactly the right place. I'm not going to say that a finger jab that lands perfectly is "less effective" but it is more specialized and specialized techniques are less likely to be useful under stress.



    Let's reverse your logic for a moment and say, "Mate, if there's no pi quan in WMA, your attitude should be; "Well, Ok, I need to learn how to pi quan properly then."

    Think about it.


    I'll be sure to work on integrating this into my game immidiettly...
    Last edited by Anna Kovacs; 2/05/2007 8:52pm at .
  3. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/05/2007 9:16pm

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     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I like Annatrocity. I'd also like to thank Kungfucowboy for making kungers look bad.
  4. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/05/2007 9:33pm

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     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There's lots of talk of adapting, refining, updating kung fu. Is it going to turn into kickboxing and as such, lose its identity as kungfu? Let me put something out for arguments sake; say you do a kungfu style and it has a crappy, slap punch or something. Nobody can really pull it off in sparring becuase it's too slow and convoluted to use under pressure. Isn't updating the punch just going to turn it into boxing? It's first change might be the equivalent of a beginners jab. But isn't there a reason why the jab also contains torsion of the hip, and foot? Becuase it gets more power that way compared to throwing an arm punch. If you want to make this punch the best you possibly can it's destined to become a boxing punch becuase boxers have already gone through this process. It must be pointed out that I operate on certian assumptions:

    - There is a best way to punch.
    - The best way to punch is universal due to the physical and biomechanical laws which we are all subject to.
    - Boxers, due to the competition and scientific training, are at the cutting edge of punching technque and mechanics.

    PS: Attack those assumptions and the hypothesis has to fall down.
    Last edited by Virus; 2/05/2007 9:36pm at .
  5. Virus is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/05/2007 9:37pm

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     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Also, I forgot to mention something important:

    If a boxer and a chunner have a fight and the boxer dominates the match what does that make the chunner?

    The _underdog.
  6. Physics_Nazi is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2007 9:51pm


     Style: _詠_春

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Is this really the place to have an argument for or against CMA?

    Quote Originally Posted by Virus
    - There is a best way to punch.
    There is a best way to sit at the keyboard and scratch your arse. Convince me you have it.

    - The best way to punch is universal due to the physical and biomechanical laws which we are all subject to.
    Laws most people don't understand including biomechanics guys but especially you and me.

    - Boxers, due to the competition and scientific training, are at the cutting edge of punching technque and mechanics.
    Scientific how? I can believe conditioning and nutritional arguments, but the science of punching is generally BS. Most real physicists couldn't give a toss about sports mechanics. A retired plasma physics expert I know got into the science of tennis. He found a discipline so lacking and full of **** that people pay for his plane tickets to Wimbeldon now. When a real scientist gets interested he is treated like a god. This guy is into other stuff like murder cases, so even he doesn't give the topic his full attention.

    There just aren't enough decent scientists in sports mechanics to consider it a developed field (hence that god awful show on the discovery channel).

    A sports physicist is the king of shits but the **** of kings.
  7. Mut Sao is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2007 9:54pm


     Style: Kung Fu

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    See I think that's a bullshit line of reasoning. I realize that no matter what style I train in I'm not going to be a top level or even a good fighter, I don't however let that be an excuse to train in a style that doesn't produce good fighters.
    ... unfortunantly you are equating good fighters with only sport fighting.... which i think is a bullshit line of reasoning. Can't speak for most KF linages but mine is rife with fighters of recent generations who have been involved in various nefarious activities.

    lets face it sport fighting is only another progression of sparring, excelling in sport fighting means you excell at ... well... sports fighting (which can be a great training tool for fighting, no doubt) While sparring and playing those games is key to developing fighting skill it is not the be all and end all of fighting.... it is a component.

    it is the style that produces good fighters, it's not just that the style attracts good fighters. For an example I used to study mcdojo karate, and switched to boxing, I believe that switching to boxing made me a better fighter than had I stayed in karate.
    I agree.... Why did you switch to boxing? because you thought it would improve your fighting skill? You could have tried a non-mcdojo karate instead and possibly improved your fighting skill also. my point being again KF is a very broad church.... i could not even guess at the amount of systems in CMA, of those some are good, some not so good.... 2 people of similar attributes will develop differently in 2 different systems of KF... just as they would in the same system under different instructors.

    But along with all this there comes a large bunch of people who train KF to become *enlightened* not to fight better.... many people within KF can't seem to grasp that it is before all esoteric things a method(s) of fighting... this is the fault of the marketing/teaching not the techniques themselves.



    I'll be sure to work on integrating this into my game immidiettly...
    hi Anna... maybe if you found someone willing to teach you HOW to use this you may incorporate it into your game..... but maybe not.... it is quite hard to apply open handed tactics in boxing/ KB gloves....

    as for the finger strike.... that photo is dud... finger strikes from well formed structure can break cheeks ect.... it is not that much more difficult than a jab to land well... personally i am nice and don't finger jab eyes in sparring (not intentionally anyway)... a finger jab is not that different from a jab in mechanics, just you use the fingers not the fist. And you may be suprised at how finger jabs can actually slide into the eye socket pretty easily.

    also...
    if I hit you in the forehead it's going to snap your head back
    nah.... no neccessarily, i can jab a friend of mine in the forehead as hard as i like and his head stays pretty stable.... ohh but then i do KF so my experience is automatically invalid

    Oh man what a novel idea, because no one steps into the ring intending to do just that. We all like to drag it on as long as possible because we just love getting hit!
    the rules are designed to prolong the bout.... sport fighting is for entertainment the longer the match the bigger the beating the more people like it.... Think about how you felt last time you spent big money to watch a fight that lasted 5 seconds.... it happens but it is rare....

    having said this i love to go spar with whoever... and for that you need some format to play.... but even if you get hurt it is only play.
  8. Torakaka is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/05/2007 9:59pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Physics_Nazi
    Is this really the place to have an argument for or against CMA?
    While this may not be the place for CMA bashing, CMA certainly shouldn't be free from criticism just because this is a specialized forum. I guess that's supposed to be the duty of the CMA people, though. I'm just trying to be a bit more even handed for the time being than I might otherwise be.
    Ranked #9 internationally at 118lbs by WIKBA http://www.womenkickboxing.com/wikba...rch%202009.htm
  9. Anna Kovacs is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/05/2007 10:11pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    [QUOTE=Mut Sao]

    hi Anna... maybe if you found someone willing to teach you HOW to use this you may incorporate it into your game..... but maybe not.... it is quite hard to apply open handed tactics in boxing/ KB gloves.... [quote]

    Luckily I don't always fight with boxing gloves. Perhaps you should consider telling me exactly what said technique accomplishes and I'll have a bit more to go on.

    as for the finger strike.... that photo is dud... finger strikes from well formed structure can break cheeks ect
    I find this hard to believe since heavy weight trained fighters hitting eachother with 4 ounce gloves or knees or elbows don't often cause fractured cheeks.


    .... it is not that much more difficult than a jab to land well... personally i am nice and don't finger jab eyes in sparring (not intentionally anyway)... a finger jab is not that different from a jab in mechanics, just you use the fingers not the fist. And you may be suprised at how finger jabs can actually slide into the eye socket pretty easily.
    Your target is a signifigantly smaller area, that makes it harder to hit. Especially when the adrenline dump happens and most especially when your opponent moves their head.

    also...
    nah.... no neccessarily, i can jab a friend of mine in the forehead as hard as i like and his head stays pretty stable.... ohh but then i do KF so my experience is automatically invalid
    :)

    the rules are designed to prolong the bout.... sport fighting is for entertainment the longer the match the bigger the beating the more people like it.... Think about how you felt last time you spent big money to watch a fight that lasted 5 seconds.... it happens but it is rare....
    The rules are designed supposedly for fighter safety(though I;d suggest mostly because the Nevada state athletic commission are weiners). Even so in MMA ones possible ways to win the fights are numerous. Pretty much everytime I've stepped into the ring for MMA it's hit me that I can do basically anything I like and it's just fine.

    Regardless of your opinion on sportfighters aiming to draw out the match the fact is that we do try to end this **** quick, and in MMA bouts often do end in the first round. In fact I'd make a solid wager that it's rarer that they go the distance then end in the first 2 minutes.

    We have a lot of things we can do to end the matches fast, and thats what we strive for. The reason that MMA fights go the distance is because it's two reasonably tough people in there so I don't want to hear any bullshit about how "i train to win fights quickly against joe blows!"

    Because with joe blows it doesnt really take anything to win fights quickly.
  10. Omar is offline

    Baji demigod.

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2007 10:26pm

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     Style: Chinese Kung Fu

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    Virus,

    Seeing as you couldn't punch your way out of a wet paper bag you aren't really even qualified to be on this thread. JUDO CHOP! Hazaah! Wait till your mom changes your diapers and then come back because your **** is stinking up the forum.

    Judo Atem! Yeah!

    BJJ KO by right cross!!! <----yeah. That'll happen.

    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Oh man what a novel idea, because no one steps into the ring intending to do just that. We all like to drag it on as long as possible because we just love getting hit!
    The jab is not a finisher. Name 5 current boxers who go for the KO in round one. They drag it on because the game is rigged to make it last longer for anyone not in the top .5% of professionals. People like Tyson and Jones and even then, what's the average length of a proboxing match compared to a pro MMA match? It's not the goal of the fighters. It's just the way the rules are set up.

    Thats because pretty much everyone in MMA, even the skilled strikers really aren't all that skilled with their hands comapred to say a boxer. Also 4 ounce gloves help encourage power shots even more.
    There's those rules I was talking about again. Now getting back to CMA, traditionally including kicking and throwing and with no gloves. The enviroment dictates the value of the technique so yeah....no gloves, kicking allowed including stomps across the knee (not allowed in Sanda or most amateur kickboxing events. Not clear on the pro rules) and any kind of throwing you like. The same exacy thing applies. When the range of techniques is opened up the value of any specific technique diminishes and that puts evolutionary pressure on people to focus on different things.

    I'd wager I could help modify your opinion on the jab. If I jab you while you're kicking you're quite likely going to get knocked off balance and go stumbling backwards.
    Not round kick. THAT can be countered with a jab. Either teep or "step" on the jabber's lead shin. Some people I know practice that as a drill. Face of in fighting stance and just go back and forth taking terms stepping on the other persons lead shin. With the teep you controll the distance, especially with a lead leg teep.

    The importance diminishes because then people can rely on other things and having a well rounded game is more important then a sharp jab. The problem is most people in kickboxing and MMA dont have a sharp jab and thus couldnt rely on it in the first place. if they did have a sharp jab then they'd most likely dump chumply paying sports like kickboxing and MMA and go into boxing.
    Possibly. The first half of this is just agreeing with me. As for jumping sports....hehe....I think you both vastly overestimate the degree of logic that goes into choosing a martial art and also make it sound like all you need to be a great boxer is a sharp jab. What if they have been brainwashed by the MMA forum to believe that boxing sucks? What if they have a glass jaw? What if the person just *gasp* likes grappling more than striking? Who the hell gives themself a list of professional considerations when choosing a martial art to train in? Maybe you did but that is a VERY small sampling of the population. Even the athletes in MMA today, did they sit down and brainstorm with a pad and paper about wether they should go into boxing vs. MMA or did they go with the closest gym that they liked or did they just see MMA on pay per view and think, "Dude! That rocks!"?

    Contrasting that to a regular jab the regular jab is going to suck no matter where it hits you, if I hit you in the forehead it's going to snap your head back and throw you off balance
    Unless I lean into it an fa-jin with my forehead at the moment of impact. I've done that on purpose and sprained a dudes wrist even though he had 14 oz gloves on. And also no, you don't need to be that precise with the fingerjab. Main purpose is usually just to get a reaction. Their hands come up. The eyes close for a moment. Then you can lay in a power shot. Also, better than stabbing at the eyes is to just kind of rake your fingertips across horozontally. It requires very little precision that way. If you have your range right you can land a good palm. That's a typical pi quan app.

    I'll be sure to work on integrating this into my game immidiettly...
    That would not be a wise choice. It would be just as silly as me spending all the hours it takes to develop a world class jab. You couldn't do what you do from that stance. You'd have to start all over from scratch. Likewise, I am not likely to jab much because I am not trying to be a boxer. Ever see Fedor Jab? He's an awsome striker though. Just not a boxing striker.

    ooohh....I'm quaking in my boots from the feared "jab".....*shudder* :gay:
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