Welcome to Chunderdome

**Bang!** · Posted On: 2/01/2007 7:59pm

Hi jerks,

I'm going to jump in with the first post in our stinking new forum (if someone beats me to it while I write this, I will delete their post, kill them and then dump the body in their town’s water supply). So how does a section on Chinese martial arts fit into Bullshido? Sort of like an ingrown toenail, I should imagine. On one hand, CMAs offer some of the oldest and most creative delivery systems for whoop-ass around. On the other hand, the sheer amount of bullshit stacked up in the name of the Motherland is simply staggering. So where do we even begin?

First of all, there are the common misconceptions. Let’s start with those. I’d like to create a FAQ that addresses them in detail. This will serve both to save us from rehashing the same issues again and again and provide an easy reference for those who drunkenly wander here in search of edification. So if you have any ideas, please post them here or PM me. I’ll put them together in a lovely package and update them as necessary.

So what kind of questions and issues should we deal with? In addition to the standard-issue thoughts on how MMA protects those whose systems are not 80% gouging and practicing chi sau alone will make you invincible, let’s make an effort to I.D. the primary principles and claims of each CMA. If there’s disagreement, that’s fine, at least it’s a starting point. I just don’t want definitive statements from people with under a year of training.

One other thing for now: because of where we are, we can’t just pretend that everyone simply accepts that CMAs work. Most people here think we downright suck. So if we’re going to earn any respect for our given styles, we’re going to have to come up with standards for legitimacy and back those up with evidence. The burden of proof is on us, folks; stories about how some guy in 1886 beat up a tiger with a ginger fist strike aren’t going to cut it anymore.

Let the games begin.

**GIJoe6186** · Posted On: 2/03/2007 1:18am

Well lets start off with a question that I think would lead to legitamizing most CMA's. What were the full contact fights between school about or like?

What were challenge matches like between schools? Ive heard stories from when I did Kempo where when a new school would open up, the instructor would build a wooded platform and take on any challenge matches from anyone who doubted him. That could be complete BS though, but its what I was taught at the school. Sort of like how they use the Lei Tai(sp?).

Now that I mention it, what is the Lei Tai for and what rules are usually used when peopl fight on it?

The Japanese arts had the police games that Judo won in order to test arts against eachother, did China have anything like it?

**Omar** · Posted On: 2/03/2007 2:50am

*sigh*

I'm gonna give this a try and see what happens.

What were the full contact fights between school about or like?

Depends on the school. No official rules. Some people got flat out killed (Baji master Li Shuwen killed most of his challengers), especially if the challenge involved weapons. Some people just admitted they sucked after the first exchange and stepped off. Challenge rules could be decided on on the spot by the challenger and the teacher. A lot of the reason push hands is emphasised in Taiji comes from it's role as a way of challenging/testing someone without any real danger of serious injury but it still lets you asses really accurately where someone's skill is at.

Ive heard stories from when I did Kempo where when a new school would open up, the instructor would build a wooded platform and take on any challenge matches from anyone who doubted him.

Not so much. That happened more if someone really had something to prove. Seems to me like it was more common for "foreigners" like the Russian's or the Japanese to do that as a way of saying to the local Chinese, "you guys are a bunch of pussies". Maybe it was more of a big thing in the south. I never heard much about it in northern China.

Now that I mention it, what is the Lei Tai for and what rules are usually used when people fight on it?

A lei tai is just a raised stage with no ropes. No official rules anymore than an octogon has rules or a boxing ring have rules. It's not a type of competition so much as just a type of arena. Usually one feature is that getting knocked off of it either gives the other guy mucho pointso or just plain out ends the match.

The Japanese arts had the police games that Judo won in order to test arts against eachother, did China have anything like it?

In 1928 there was the very famous Nanjing National Martial Arts Acadamy which was actually just the central branch for a nationwide system of martial arts acadamies with branches established in almost every province. Each year the provinces would send in teams to compete at the nanjing acadamy in weapons, sanda and shuai jiao categories. The national system was modeled after the Jingwu Physical Education Institute set up by Mizongquan master Huo Yuan Jia (the dude Jet Li played in "Fearless") but when the Japanese invaded some years later the entire system was scrapped as there were no economic resources for it.

**slideyfoot** · Posted On: 2/03/2007 1:44pm

Originally Posted by KungFuCowboy

In 1928 there was the very famous Nanjing National Martial Arts Acadamy which was actually just the central branch for a nationwide system of martial arts acadamies with branches established in almost every province. Each year the provinces would send in teams to compete at the nanjing acadamy in weapons, sanda and shuai jiao categories.

Was it at all related to the event mentioned below? I ask purely due to it having the same date - there was a piece on a 'chinese boxing' tournament in Shanghai, published in The Times, Tuesday 30th October 1928, page 17:

**Omar** · Posted On: 2/03/2007 10:14pm

Not related beyond that fact that there was a lot of that going on at the time.

Interesting contrast to the article you posted though is that western boxing and other non-CMA were actually part of the curriculum at the Nanjing acadamy.

**Bang!** · Posted On: 2/04/2007 8:29am

I remember someone telling me that the jab hadn't really existed in Chinese boxing prior to this, and that Chen Zhen was the one who introduced it. True -- or just pop culture adaptation?

**Omar** · Posted On: 2/04/2007 7:36pm

Perhaps a jab as in a classic boxing type jab, sure but plenty of quick, sharp lead hand punching with the main purpose being to set up the rear.

It just depends how anal you want to be about defining a "jab".

**Virus** · Posted On: 2/04/2007 10:43pm

How to get kung fu legitamised, the same way that judo or wrestling was:

Get some wins in MMA.
Get some wins in full contact striking comps.

Here's the important bit: Your kung fu has to look like kungfu. You have to use kungfu footwork, technqiues and stances. Putting up your dukes and throwing jabs and crosses then collar tieing and using thai knees and doesn't count.

**Bang!** · Posted On: 2/05/2007 12:09am

Kung fu has racked up a lot of victories in san shou. The ruleset may not be as broad as MMA, but it is unquestionably a legitimate venue. The fact that you're not aware of that probably means that you shouldn't be posting here.

**Torakaka** · Posted On: 2/05/2007 12:17am

Originally Posted by KungFuCowboy

Perhaps a jab as in a classic boxing type jab, sure but plenty of quick, sharp lead hand punching with the main purpose being to set up the rear.

It just depends how anal you want to be about defining a "jab".

I do not qualify any linear, lead hand punch as being a jab. I'm very anal about how people define a jab. It's one of those things that really grinds my gears.