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  1. pauli is offline

    i keep tryin to spar, but nothin happens!

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    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 2:36pm

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Testing the Waters: Ko-ryu Striking?

    trying to get a handle on what goes here; if i fail at internet, oh well.

    it occured to me the other day while driving to class that i have no idea what japanese striking styles were like before karate made it into the culture. nearly all of the koryu jujutsu demo videos i've seen can be classified as either protojudo and protoaikido, but i'm willing to presume that there was some level of punchin and kickin going on between deadly wrist grabs.

    what direction should i look in to satiate my curiosity on this subject?
    Last edited by Plasma; 2/01/2007 5:48pm at . Reason: Fixing the Title
  2. Plasma is online now
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    Bullshido's Greatest Ninja

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    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 2:58pm

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     Style: JJJ/Judo[Nidan] BJJ[Blue]

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by pauli
    trying to get a handle on what goes here; if i fail at internet, oh well.

    it occured to me the other day while driving to class that i have no idea what japanese striking styles were like before karate made it into the culture. nearly all of the koryu jujutsu demo videos i've seen can be classified as either protojudo and protoaikido, but i'm willing to presume that there was some level of punchin and kickin going on between deadly wrist grabs.

    what direction should i look in to satiate my curiosity on this subject?

    There are a few Ko Ryu Jujutsu school whose Taijutsu focus on Atemi-waza rather then KumiTachi. Older style striking usually classifies inself under Koppojutsu, Dakenjutsu, or Gohojutsu.


    The Atemijutsu arts are fewer and far between because Ko Ryu arts intended for battlefield antisipates standard armor, therefore throws and grappling were more effective then punching and kicking. However, those artd still do have atemi-waza to set up their throw.

    That being said there are a few Striking Ko Ryu, whose intended use wasn't a location where people wore armour (aka anywhere but the battlefield);


    Here is a sample of Ko Ryu striking art. This is Koto Ryu Koppojutsu

    [media]http://youtube.com/watch?v=PX1Kofu6CLk[/media]

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=PX1Kofu6CLk
  3. leere_form is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 4:24pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    my favorite part was when he threw the guy on his face with that sutemi-waza/tomoe-nage thing.

    otherwise.. eh, it's interesting from a historical standpoint!
  4. Plasma is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 4:38pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by leere_form
    my favorite part was when he threw the guy on his face with that sutemi-waza/tomoe-nage thing.

    otherwise.. eh, it's interesting from a historical standpoint!
    The older throws were more designed to throw people on their head rather then letting them flip in a air and do a safe fall. Thats an Okuden (Advanced) technique for the Ryu-Ha.

    I like it too.


    As for the video, do keep it mind, it from a demo, demo techniques tends to be over ritualized and showy.
    Last edited by Plasma; 2/01/2007 4:43pm at .
  5. leere_form is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 4:59pm


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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    of course, of course, demo techniques are like that.

    that they train throwing people on their heads (in a way that looks like it would work just fine) endears me to these guys anyway.

    it looks very aikido-esque in parts, leading me to wonder if they have some of the "lost striking techniques" of aikido ... or if that's what t3h r34l aikido is supposed to look like.
  6. Plasma is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 5:03pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by leere_form
    of course, of course, demo techniques are like that.

    that they train throwing people on their heads (in a way that looks like it would work just fine) endears me to these guys anyway.

    it looks very aikido-esque in parts, leading me to wonder if they have some of the "lost striking techniques" of aikido ... or if that's what t3h r34l aikido is supposed to look like.


    In Japanese Martial Arts, if Aikido is the very left of the spectrum , Koppojutsu is on the very right.

    Aikido: "I flow will your attack, letting you throw yourself"
    Koppojutsu: "I stop you attack by attacking you, the I grab your skin and use it to throw you on your head"
  7. leere_form is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 5:13pm


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    the numerous ways in which people approach "aikido" never cease to amaze me, because in yoshinkan aikido at least, they use a lot of "pre-emptive" attacks. ostensibly the attack elicits a defense response, to get the opponent to present an arm for arm/wrist techniques.

    not quite as aggressive as koppojutsu sounds, but not as passively defensive as aikido is often made out to be.

    it's weird because you run into the opinion far too often that aikido "has no attacks" or
    "never strikes first," when certainly some styles retain and train striking in one form or another.

    i know morihei ueshiba at one point said that "aikido is 99% atemi," but i'd have to find the source if we're gonna contribute that to the "koryu striking" discussion.
  8. DCS is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/02/2007 1:22pm

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    Quote Originally Posted by leere_form
    i know morihei ueshiba at one point said that "aikido is 99% atemi," but i'd have to find the source if we're gonna contribute that to the "koryu striking" discussion.
    - From the book "Traditional Aikido", written by Saito Morihiro; Vol 5.

    pg. 38 - ATEMI (Body blow prior to applying technique).

    "Atemi accounts for 99% of Aikido was a remark once uttered by the founder. I introduced atemi at some length in Vol. 4. Atemi is virtually omitted in Aikido training on the ground that [a] preliminary blow should not become a matter of predominant concern. However, there are quite a few cases in which hte meaning of a technique becomes incomprehensible if the attendant atemi is left out. I suggest therefore that after reading through Vol. 4, study should be made as to when atemi should be delivered in the execution of a technique and cases of it's omission."


    - From the book "Total Aikido", written by Shioda Gozo.

    pg. 24 - ATEMI - STRIKING (The moment of contact becomes a strike).

    "The founder, Ueshiba Sensei, said, In a real battle, atemi is seventy percent, technique is thirty percent. The training that we do in the dojo is designed to teach us various sorts of techniques, the correct way to move our body, effective ways of using our power, and how to create a relationship with the other person." [This quote is repeated on page 19 of "Aikido Shugyo", also by Shioda Gozo].

    - From the biographical book "The Founder of Aikido, Morihei Ueshiba", written by Ueshiba Kisshomaru (translated and reprinted in Aiki News #62). Excerpt originally written by Okamoto Ippei and published in the November 1933 (i think it's a typo) issue of Budo magazine.

    "[Ueshiba] started with easy techniques using two of his students. Even for an untrained eye, it was clear that he moved very softly... However, in the meantime his students attack him with all their might and still tumble down in a shower of attacks (atemi) to their vital points.
    In short his art reaches a conclusion before ordinary judo even starts its work. [The Founder] said, 'My technique is 70 percent atemi (striking) and 30 percent nage (throwing).' "


    Source
    Last edited by DCS; 2/02/2007 1:24pm at .
  9. leere_form is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/02/2007 11:29pm


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    aha, thanks.

    do you train atemi in your aikido style?
  10. spooky is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/07/2007 7:07am


     

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ninjew
    In Japanese Martial Arts, if Aikido is the very left of the spectrum , Koppojutsu is on the very right.

    Aikido: "I flow will your attack, letting you throw yourself"
    Koppojutsu: "I stop you attack by attacking you, the I grab your skin and use it to throw you on your head"

    Koto Ryu can bloody hurt!
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