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View Poll Results: Jujutsu Vs. Jujitsu

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  • Jujutsu

    40 58.82%
  • Jujitsu

    13 19.12%
  • I'm a Ninja!

    15 22.06%
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  1. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/20/2007 1:21am

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Stone
    So, rather than "soft technique," your friend instead teaches "soft truth?"

    Yes, though he prefers "flexible" over "soft" for the translation of "ju".

    If you want people to accept an appeal to authority to a Japanese language scholar you happen to know, I think it is only fitting to pull out another appeal to authority to an actual scholar of Jujitsu who is also pretty well educated in both Japanese and English as a rebuttal.
    Last edited by Tom Kagan; 2/20/2007 1:24am at .
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  2. Matt Stone is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/20/2007 1:25am

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     Style: FMA, CMA, & more

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    Yes, though he prefers "flexible" over "soft" for the translation of "ju".
    To further clarify, does he teach "flexible technique," or "flexible truth?" That makes worlds of difference in this discussion...

    Again, "technique" and "truth" are two different words in Japanese just as they are in English, with different kanji and different pronunciations, not to mention different transliterations (the former being "jutsu," the latter being "jitsu").

    Anyway, enjoy.

    :beatdead:
  3. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/20/2007 1:33am

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Stone
    To further clarify, does he teach "flexible technique," or "flexible truth?" That makes worlds of difference in this discussion...

    Again, "technique" and "truth" are two different words in Japanese just as they are in English, with different kanji and different pronunciations, not to mention different transliterations (the former being "jutsu," the latter being "jitsu").

    Anyway, enjoy.

    :beatdead:

    I know that; so does he. He likes "flexible truth" as a better description of his "flexible art."

    That's the problem with the appeal to authority you started. Asking the "Japanese Jujitsu scholar" to explain himself is like you asking your "Japanese language scholar" to explain himself. They just "know" and neither you nor I have the deeper knowledge of their subject matter to understand their answer even if they could put it into more words than "that's what it is supposed to be."


    ... and, I think both you and I find it rather amusing to beat dead horses.

    We get a really good idea, and then we'll do it every night for a couple months, and then we'll continue to do it, and then just beat it to death, and then after we've beaten it to death, we'll do it for another year. " -- David Letterman
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  4. Matt Stone is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/20/2007 1:39am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    I know that; so does he. He likes "flexible truth" as a better description of his "flexible art."
    So you've made my point for me... Thanks for that. He uses a different word entirely, thereby nullifying your attempt to imply that I don't know what I'm talking about.

    真 = jitsu = "jee-tsoo" = truth

    術 = jutsu = "joo-tsoo" = technique

    That's the problem with the appeal to authority you started. Asking the "Japanese Jujitsu scholar" to explain himself is like you asking your "Japanese language scholar" to explain himself. They just "know" and neither you nor I have the deeper knowledge of their subject matter to understand their answer even if they could put it into more words than "that's what it is supposed to be."
    Quite the contrary, Mr. Watson...

    ... and, I think both you and I find it rather amusing to beat dead horses.
    Ultimately, is a pseudo-scholarly, intraweb debate over foreign linguistics as they apply to the pursuit of martial skill anything but?
  5. Iscariot is offline

    I decided I'd have a pretty avatar for a while.

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    Posted On:
    2/20/2007 1:46am


     Style: Student Jutsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This thread is now worthy of being called a MAP style slap fest.

    The word is in English, there is a small precedent of words in the English language being spelt completely differently to their pronunciation, a tradition that even whilst raping my beautiful language the Yanks have continued.

    For example, all the Yanks should look up the pronunciation of Edinburgh and compare that to its written form. You'll be amazed at just how wrong you fuckers have been pronouncing it. Another example would be Arkansas.

    Dictionaries come with pronunciation keys for a reason, written words are not identical to spoken language. Arguing over the pronunciation of a word in Japanese to the way it's spelt in English is retarded.

    For the sake of clarity, I favour the Ju Jutsu spelling (not Jitsu or Jujutsu), but the actual pronunciation (as pointed out already) is 'joo joot soo'.
    "Listen to Iscariot you Vicchysoise ninja-fuckers!" - kohadril
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    "I'll pray for you Iscariot." - Mas
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  6. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/20/2007 1:55am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I never said you didn't know what you were talking about. I said you were being a word Nazi or possibly trying to be more Japanese than the Japanese.

    There is a difference. Or, should we start beating that horse, too?


    :smile:

    ... for the record, he uses 術 and translates it as "art" (Cool, I had to cut-and-paste that. I'm assuming you have an IME and typed "jutsu".) He says that's too rigid and there is more truth it. Hence, his flexible and artistic double entendre.

    [Okay, he didn't quite phrase it like that - with the bad puns. That's just me getting a little loopy here. Since the jobs I was running completed 10 minutes ago, I'm going to bed.]
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  7. Cassius is online now
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    Posted On:
    2/20/2007 2:08am

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     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Iscariot
    For example, all the Yanks should look up the pronunciation of Edinburgh and compare that to its written form. You'll be amazed at just how wrong you fuckers have been pronouncing it.
    My Scottish ex girlfriend talked about Hogmanay so much that I now constantly misspell Edinburgh.
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
  8. wakinonioi is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/20/2007 2:11am


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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The 'jutsu' people are correct, the rest are just being stipid.
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  9. KeithAtTakadaDojo is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/20/2007 10:21am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Stone
    Jesus tap-dancing Christ...

    I'm not talking about changing the world. I'm talking about correcting people who ought to know better (e.g. martial artists who practice one or more variants of a grappling art referred to as either jujutsu, jujitsu, or jiu-jiutsu, ad nauseum), pointing out the relatively "approved" method of romanized transliteration of a foreign word in contrast to versions that, especially when applied to other Japanese arts, are commonly held to be incorrect. I get that "the rest of the world," to include Google and other spellcheckers, says "jujitsu" is okay. Fine. Good for them. I'm saying, for those "in the know," it's not good enough... There's the possibility of better, and better has always been the mortal enemy of good enough.

    What about these -

    Kenjitsu or Kenjutsu?

    Kyujitsu or Kyujutsu?

    Ninjitsu or Ninjutsu?

    Again, ad nauseum... But I'm thinking that a koryu budo purist wouldn't sit still for "jitsu."

    I'm not going around correcting the "common man" for his misuse of very specific jargon. Even in Japan, in Japanese, martial arts terminology are largely unknown by persons outside the dojo community; if someone misuses a term in that context, whatever.

    For those who train, practice, read, and aspire to higher levels of knowledge, however, I point out the flaws as I know them to be, in light of my experience and education.

    **** this... Spell it how you like, argue for your own usage. I'll be sure to keep my mouth shut and let you all do whatever you like, however you like, since it's not worth the trouble to make what is, as has been pointed out by my detractors, such a very minor correction... I mean, really, it's transposing an "i" for a "u." I may be arguing on behalf of the "u," but y'all are putting up a hell of a fight to keep your "i."
    Just as a reminder, I agree that "jujutsu" reflects the way Japanese people say the word. That's the way I hear it every day here and that's the way I prefer to see it spelled. But it doesn't represent anything "higher" or "better". English speakers adopting the word into English and pronouncing it or spelling it "jujitsu" reflects the natural evolution of an imported word. It's just like my Japanese boxing coach pronouncing and spelling it ボクシング. Should I tell him that's "not good enough" for a former champion boxer and start correcting him? If he actually changes to the "commonly approved" American pronunciation (instead of punching me in the face), does that really make him "better" in any way?

    Sorry if I'm busting your balls too much about this. You obviously know what you're talking about with language, but those value judgements rub me the wrong way. That's all. I will now return to lurking. :lurk:
  10. theeveryman is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/20/2007 11:49am

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     Style: aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Matt Stone, I apologize. I previously did an internet search on yili and got nothing, so i assumed it was mcdojo.

    however, i did a search on a different engine just now and found a few links..

    again, i'm sorry.

    from what i read, though, it sounds a lot like aikido.
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