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View Poll Results: Jujutsu Vs. Jujitsu

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  • Jujutsu

    40 58.82%
  • Jujitsu

    13 19.12%
  • I'm a Ninja!

    15 22.06%
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  1. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/19/2007 7:11pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Stone
    If someone is misspelling, mispronouncing, or misusing a word, isn't it simply common courtesy to correct that other person to help them to stop embarrassing themselves further? Isn't Bullshido's stated mission to intervene, and to some perceptions interfere, in order to help correct those who are less than correct in what they're doing? Those here who would say "leave well enough alone," or "it's okay, use it how you like," are echoing what bullshit martial artists say when someone points out the flaws in their art, their curriculum, their training method, etc.

    Bottom line, wrong (in any given thing) is wrong when there are established standards by which to measure a given performance. Be it "dead" fight training, be it an ignorant adherence to outdated training methodologies, or be it improper use, pronunciation, and spelling of foreign language terms, wrong is wrong.

    As I pointed out before, I know at least one person who is Japanese who uses the Jujitsu spelling. Now, everything about him is Japanese: born, raised, ancestry, education, fluent in speaking, reading, and writing, the hole nine yards.

    He emigrated to the U.S., learned to speak, read, and write fluent english, learned a few different transliterations of his native tongue, has a black belt in Jujitsu (Kito ryu, if memory serves), and is a MA instructor.

    He uses "Jujitsu" !!!


    You are being a word Nazi. It's either that, or you are trying to be more Japanese than the Japanese.

    :smile:
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  2. shinbushi is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/19/2007 8:07pm


     Style: Muay Thai, Judo, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just to be a bigger pain in the ass the current Jorden method of romanization would be jujutu as "tu"represents the correct consonant vowel pair (mora) better than tsu.
    The Jordan method also uses the following si = shi, ti = chi, and several others.
    I think linguists just mess with the romanization so Japanophiles can are about the spelling.
    Last edited by shinbushi; 2/19/2007 8:10pm at .
  3. Matt Stone is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/19/2007 9:50pm

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     Style: FMA, CMA, & more

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    As I pointed out before, I know at least one person who is Japanese who uses the Jujitsu spelling.
    And I can name all my friends still in Japan who use the "jutsu" spelling, to include two language teachers. What's next? Your dad could kick my dad's ass?

    Whatever. Pick up a textbook, see what version they use. I said out front that there were problems with transliteration, but that the rules of a language trump whatever we "think" is the right thing. I'm going off what I learned, from friends as well as university classes. If your buddy spells it "jitsu," more power to him. The problem is that "jitsu" in standard romaji can mean "truth," "reality," "sincerity," "fidelity," or "kindness," whereas "jutsu" can mean "art" or "means" (as in method or technique).

    That took me all of 4 seconds to determine on a simple, standardized English/Japanese/English dictionary...

    :biblethum (I love that little guy...)

    You are being a word Nazi. It's either that, or you are trying to be more Japanese than the Japanese.
    Yep, you've got me. That's just what I'm doing... :eusa_danc
  4. KeithAtTakadaDojo is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/19/2007 10:45pm

    Business Class Supporting Member
     Author of Philosophy of Fighting: Morals and Motivations of the Modern Warrior Style: submission wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Stone
    ...If someone is misspelling, mispronouncing, or misusing a word, isn't it simply common courtesy to correct that other person to help them to stop embarrassing themselves further? Isn't Bullshido's stated mission to intervene, and to some perceptions interfere, in order to help correct those who are less than correct in what they're doing? Those here who would say "leave well enough alone," or "it's okay, use it how you like," are echoing what bullshit martial artists say when someone points out the flaws in their art, their curriculum, their training method, etc...
    You know, I actually agreed with you your posts up to this point. A word is what it is when it's imported to another language and I'm not much for fighting against it, unless you're in a foriegn language classes. My guess is that you probably didn't correct Japanese people when you had conversations in Japanese in the course of your daily life here. If you corrected everyone outside of the classroom who said "boh-koo-sheen-goo" instead of "boxing" or "ray-soo-reen-goo" instead of "wrestling" you'd come across as a real prick. Why do you do it in English conversations with Japanese words?


    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Stone
    ...Bottom line, wrong (in any given thing) is wrong when there are established standards by which to measure a given performance. Be it "dead" fight training, be it an ignorant adherence to outdated training methodologies, or be it improper use, pronunciation, and spelling of foreign language terms, wrong is wrong.
    Really? I think the bottom line is that if you want to spell it like Japanese people say it, then "jujutsu" is right and "jujitsu"/"jiu-jitsu" is wrong. But I can't see getting a burr in your shorts about the way it's adopted into English. Otherwise, you've got a lot of work ahead of you. First, you have to get Americans to change their pronunciation of "sauna" back to the original Finnish "SAH-oo-nah". Then correct the spelling of "joy" so it reflects the original French. After that we'll work on reforming place names like "Worcester" and "Massachusetts". Then... :-)
    Last edited by KeithAtTakadaDojo; 2/19/2007 10:48pm at .
  5. KeithAtTakadaDojo is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/19/2007 10:49pm

    Business Class Supporting Member
     Author of Philosophy of Fighting: Morals and Motivations of the Modern Warrior Style: submission wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Stone
    ...If someone is misspelling, mispronouncing, or misusing a word, isn't it simply common courtesy to correct that other person to help them to stop embarrassing themselves further? Isn't Bullshido's stated mission to intervene, and to some perceptions interfere, in order to help correct those who are less than correct in what they're doing? Those here who would say "leave well enough alone," or "it's okay, use it how you like," are echoing what bullshit martial artists say when someone points out the flaws in their art, their curriculum, their training method, etc...
    You know, I actually agreed with you your posts up to this point. A word is what it is when it's imported to another language and I'm not much for fighting against it, unless you're in a foriegn language classes. My guess is that you probably didn't correct Japanese people when you had conversations in Japanese in the course of your daily life here. If you corrected everyone outside of the classroom who said "boh-koo-sheen-goo" instead of "boxing" or "ray-soo-reen-goo" instead of "wrestling" you'd come across as a real prick. Why do you do it in English conversations with Japanese words?


    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Stone
    ...Bottom line, wrong (in any given thing) is wrong when there are established standards by which to measure a given performance. Be it "dead" fight training, be it an ignorant adherence to outdated training methodologies, or be it improper use, pronunciation, and spelling of foreign language terms, wrong is wrong.
    Really? I think the bottom line is that if you want to spell it like Japanese people say it, then "jujutsu" is right and "jujitsu"/"jiu-jitsu" is wrong. But I can't see getting a burr in your shorts about the way it's adopted into English. Otherwise, you've got a lot of work ahead of you. First, you have to get Americans to change their pronunciation of "sauna" back to the original Finnish "SAH-oo-nah". Then correct the spelling of "joy" so it reflects the original French. After that we'll work on reforming place names like "Worcester" and "Massachusetts". Then... :-)
  6. Matt Stone is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/19/2007 11:00pm

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     Style: FMA, CMA, & more

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Jesus tap-dancing Christ...

    I'm not talking about changing the world. I'm talking about correcting people who ought to know better (e.g. martial artists who practice one or more variants of a grappling art referred to as either jujutsu, jujitsu, or jiu-jiutsu, ad nauseum), pointing out the relatively "approved" method of romanized transliteration of a foreign word in contrast to versions that, especially when applied to other Japanese arts, are commonly held to be incorrect. I get that "the rest of the world," to include Google and other spellcheckers, says "jujitsu" is okay. Fine. Good for them. I'm saying, for those "in the know," it's not good enough... There's the possibility of better, and better has always been the mortal enemy of good enough.

    What about these -

    Kenjitsu or Kenjutsu?

    Kyujitsu or Kyujutsu?

    Ninjitsu or Ninjutsu?

    Again, ad nauseum... But I'm thinking that a koryu budo purist wouldn't sit still for "jitsu."

    I'm not going around correcting the "common man" for his misuse of very specific jargon. Even in Japan, in Japanese, martial arts terminology are largely unknown by persons outside the dojo community; if someone misuses a term in that context, whatever.

    For those who train, practice, read, and aspire to higher levels of knowledge, however, I point out the flaws as I know them to be, in light of my experience and education.

    **** this... Spell it how you like, argue for your own usage. I'll be sure to keep my mouth shut and let you all do whatever you like, however you like, since it's not worth the trouble to make what is, as has been pointed out by my detractors, such a very minor correction... I mean, really, it's transposing an "i" for a "u." I may be arguing on behalf of the "u," but y'all are putting up a hell of a fight to keep your "i."
    Last edited by Matt Stone; 2/19/2007 11:03pm at .
  7. Matt Stone is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/19/2007 11:07pm

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     Style: FMA, CMA, & more

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Stone
    Perhaps to satisfy all the non-Japanese speakers here, and to better represent the broad nature of this particular art form, and the fact that it represents a variety of arts represented in English by a variety of differently spelled words, a "Jujutsu/Jujitsu/Jiu-Jitsu" title might be more favorable?
    I said this on page 3. Nice that everyone kept up with the thread in its entirety before beating my ass about being a "word Nazi."
  8. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/20/2007 12:21am

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     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Stone
    And I can name all my friends still in Japan who use the "jutsu" spelling, to include two language teachers.
    Are they high level Jujitsu practitioners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Stone
    What's next? Your dad could kick my dad's ass?
    I don't know if your dad can beat up my dad. Although I don't know what shape your dad is in, in my dad's current physical condition, I doubt my dad could. You still might have to salute him, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Stone
    If your buddy spells it "jitsu," more power to him. The problem is that "jitsu" in standard romaji can mean "truth," "reality," "sincerity," "fidelity," or "kindness," whereas "jutsu" can mean "art" or "means" (as in method or technique).
    BINGO!

    That's why he uses the jujitsu transliteration instead of jujutsu.



    Next up, getting Matt Stone to correct his style field to "yee1-lee2-chwon4"
    to properly reflect how his choice of transliteration should really be pronounced.
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  9. rw4th is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/20/2007 12:27am


     Style: BJJ,MT,RBSD (on hiatus)

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Is it me or has this whole thread become MAP worthy?
  10. Matt Stone is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/20/2007 1:05am

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     Style: FMA, CMA, & more

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    Are they high level Jujitsu practitioners?
    No, just high level speakers of their own mother tongue, one neither you (I'm guessing) nor I are at a similar level of fluency in.

    That's why he uses the jujitsu transliteration instead of jujutsu.
    So, rather than "soft technique," your friend instead teaches "soft truth?" That's what my point was - "jutsu" means technique/method/art, while "jitsu" does not. Different sounds, different kanji. Again, whatever... Say it, write it, use it how you like...

    Next up, getting Matt Stone to correct his style field to "yee1-lee2-chwon4"
    to properly reflect how his choice of transliteration should really be pronounced.
    If that's the right reference to tones, then fine. Do you know what the characters are, though, so we don't get the tonal reference wrong? Did I mention I studied Mandarin in college, too? Maybe not...
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