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View Poll Results: Jujutsu Vs. Jujitsu

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  • Jujutsu

    40 58.82%
  • Jujitsu

    13 19.12%
  • I'm a Ninja!

    15 22.06%
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  1. wakinonioi is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/12/2007 7:22pm


     Style: Wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Stone
    Why shouldn't it bug you? I guaran-goddamn-tee that most Americans would get pissed off if folks around them routinely misspelled and mispronounced English.


    Come on, the British do it all the time!
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  2. Sushi-Boy is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/16/2007 1:08pm


     Style: Karate

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You say ju-justu...


    .... Dan Qualyle spells Jew Jisoo
  3. theeveryman is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/18/2007 8:08pm

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     Style: aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's jujitsu, not jujutsu.
  4. Matt Stone is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/18/2007 8:21pm

    supporting member
     Style: FMA, CMA, & more

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by theeveryman
    It's jujitsu, not jujutsu.
    And you study aykeedough, the style Youahsheeba created.
  5. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/18/2007 9:13pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Stone
    Karaoke = "kah-rah-oh-kay," and I'm still confused how a singing fad became the name for a soccer drill...

    How ironic on a thread such as this you don't know the drill of which you speak is CARIOCA. It comes from a tap dance step. Oddly, the step was named by a Hollywood choreographer from a dance of the same name created for one of Fred Astaire movies (name slips my mind right now). Watch Fred Astaire do the move the best:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKZOmmnBt2M

    Anyway, I think the truth of Jujitsu/Jujutsu pronounced correctly in Japanese is similar to something I've found in Cantonese: Neither pronunciation is right. While I don't know Japanese, I'd be willing to speculate the correct pronunciation lies somewhere between "i" and "u" (even if it leans more towards short vowel "u")

    As far as "jujitsu" being a poor translation, I don't think that's the case. I think somewhere along the line, someone decided "jujutsu" wasn't quite right - after all, it's not JEW JEWT SUE. Whether it was right or wrong to do, someone probably came to the conclusion "jujitsu" flowed phonetically better because of the long vowel, short vowel, long vowel transition. And, JEW JET SUE (with a stop-plosive "t" pronunciation) was born out of that strife.

    Symbolic languages are the only ones which have this problem. Spanish is written phonetically, but the 'j" sound is really more like an "h" - except its not really an "h" but more like the speaker is trying to hock up a small loogie.

    Besides, "Got Juts?" would not be as amusing as the "Got Jits?" T-shirt.


    Edit: LOL! Both the FireFox 2.0 and the Google's toolbar spell checkers want to change Jujutsu to Jujitsu. :smile:
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
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    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
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    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
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  6. Matt Stone is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/18/2007 9:56pm

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     Style: FMA, CMA, & more

    --
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    How ironic on a thread such as this you don't know the drill of which you speak is CARIOCA.
    Not ironic. I don't play soccer, but I do have to contend with wannabe athletes who do play soccer who routinely refer to said drill as "kari okey," and who spell it in written transmission as "karaoke."

    It comes from a tap dance step. Oddly, the step was named by a Hollywood choreographer from a dance of the same name created for one of Fred Astaire movies (name slips my mind right now).
    I've learned something new. Yay me.

    Anyway, I think the truth of Jujitsu/Jujutsu pronounced correctly in Japanese is similar to something I've found in Cantonese: Neither pronunciation is right. While I don't know Japanese, I'd be willing to speculate the correct pronunciation lies somewhere between "i" and "u" (even if it leans more towards short vowel "u")
    Though I suspect you're onto something with this, I maintain that the pronunciation is, in fact, the "oo" sound. I draw this opinion from living in Japan for just shy of 4 years (Jan 1999 - Sep 2002), working with actual, real, live Japanese people on a daily basis, as well as studying Japanese formally and informally. It's a very abrupt, brief pronunciation, but the vowel sound is certainly the "oo" and not the "ih" or "uh" suggested elsewhere.

    after all, it's not JEW JEWT SUE
    You're right. It's "joo," "joo," and "tsoo," with the "tsu" being either a "ts" or "tsoo" depending on regional dialect, as opposed to "joo," "joot," and "soo."

    Symbolic languages are the only ones which have this problem. Spanish is written phonetically, but the 'j" sound is really more like an "h" - except its not really an "h" but more like the speaker is trying to hock up a small loogie.
    Additionally, most Western languages possess nearly as many, if not all, of the same sounds. Easter (Asian) languages often possess sounds that are completely absent from Western languages altogether, making translation and transliteration a nightmare at best (see also the pronunciation of Mandarin Chinese, whether romanized with Pinyin or W-G methods, specific simple example being Mandarin "shi" or W-G "shi'h" for the number 10).

    I think, in the jujutsu example, it's an issue of English speakers being so arrogant as to assume that because foreign words are written with English letters (in order to cater to the demonstrated resistance of Americans, in this case, to learn English properly, much less to learn any other language) they are necessarily pronounced according to English rules.

    Besides, "Got Juts?" would not be as amusing as the "Got Jits?" T-shirt.
    You may have something there...
  7. theeveryman is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/19/2007 11:39am

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: aikido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Stone
    And you study aykeedough, the style Youahsheeba created.
    At lteast i study an actual MA...Yiliquan sounds like something out of a crappy chop socky movie watched by fat white-trash hillbillies...
  8. Tom Kagan is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/19/2007 12:30pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Stone
    Not ironic. I don't play soccer, but I do have to contend with wannabe athletes who do play soccer who routinely refer to said drill as "kari okey," and who spell it in written transmission as "karaoke."
    A bit off topic, but the very same drill, CARIOCA, is used for GPP within some elite MA circles. It can be useful.

    ... And (since you are so worked up over the J?uj?tsu transliterations) since CARIOCA is also relevant to MA training, perhaps you should consider becoming a word Nazi on this one, too. :smile:
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  9. Matt Stone is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/19/2007 2:31pm

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     Style: FMA, CMA, & more

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by theeveryman
    At lteast i study an actual MA...Yiliquan sounds like something out of a crappy chop socky movie watched by fat white-trash hillbillies...
    You study an "actual" MA? But I thought you listed aikido as what you study... Aikido does not necessarily equal martial art. I studied aikido years ago, and left because one of the senior students (not sure what "rank" he was; he was a long-haired, hippy-esque, Seagal wannabe strutting about in hakama) got upset because I hit him when he didn't execute his miraculous technique sufficiently well. That was pretty much the end of my concern with continued training in aikido...

    And your basis for chop-sockery stems from what, precisely? Please, enlighten me O-theeveryman, share your mystically endowed knowledge with us non-hakama-wearing, non-dancing-with-a-LARPing-partner, commoners...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom Kagan
    A bit off topic, but the very same drill, CARIOCA, is used for GPP within some elite MA circles. It can be useful.

    ... And (since you are so worked up over the J?uj?tsu transliterations) since CARIOCA is also relevant to MA training, perhaps you should consider becoming a word Nazi on this one, too.
    Never debated the potential utility of the drill. It's always entertaining to see Soldiers who pride themselves on their fitness and "bad-assery" unable to touch their toes due to inflexibility, unable to stand on one leg due to a lack of balance, unable to execute guerilla drills due to a lack of coordinated strength, and unable to do the Carioca drill due to a general lack of pedal dexterity...

    And I don't think it's about being a "word Nazi." I'm not worked up (though it can frustrate me when people refuse to correct themselves; I speak a smattering of Japanese after living there, whereas the best some other folks get is ordering sushi at their local Japanese restaurant), I just chimed in on a thread like everyone else did. I speak English, and I expect others who speak English to speak it with a reasonably passing degree of fluency. Accepting lowered standards (in anything, really) contributes to the overall decline in fluency and literacy. Look at how common language was spoken only 100 years ago... Compared to what passes as modern English, the common dock worker with an 8th grade education was probably capable of better word smithing than a high school senior today. I correct people I work with when they misuse English, especially given that in our line of work being well-spoken and able to write well are significantly beneficial attributes...

    If someone is misspelling, mispronouncing, or misusing a word, isn't it simply common courtesy to correct that other person to help them to stop embarrassing themselves further? Isn't Bullshido's stated mission to intervene, and to some perceptions interfere, in order to help correct those who are less than correct in what they're doing? Those here who would say "leave well enough alone," or "it's okay, use it how you like," are echoing what bullshit martial artists say when someone points out the flaws in their art, their curriculum, their training method, etc.

    Bottom line, wrong (in any given thing) is wrong when there are established standards by which to measure a given performance. Be it "dead" fight training, be it an ignorant adherence to outdated training methodologies, or be it improper use, pronunciation, and spelling of foreign language terms, wrong is wrong.
  10. DCS is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/19/2007 7:04pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: 柔道

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Why people engages in heathened debate about proper transliteration of foreign words in the
    Traditonal Martial Arts and Styles Forum
    ?????

    I don't get it.

    Edit. Solved.
    :P
    Last edited by DCS; 2/20/2007 4:34am at .
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