Jujitsu vs. Jujutsu

[wakinonioi]

Why shouldn't it bug you? I guaran-goddamn-tee that most Americans would get pissed off if folks around them routinely misspelled and mispronounced English.

Come on, the British do it all the time!

[Sushi-Boy]

You say ju-justu...


.... Dan Qualyle spells Jew Jisoo

[theeveryman]

It's jujitsu, not jujutsu.

[Matt Stone]

It's jujitsu, not jujutsu.

And you study aykeedough, the style Youahsheeba created.

[Tom Kagan]

Karaoke = "kah-rah-oh-kay," and I'm still confused how a singing fad became the name for a soccer drill...

How ironic on a thread such as this you don't know the drill of which you speak is CARIOCA. It comes from a tap dance step. Oddly, the step was named by a Hollywood choreographer from a dance of the same name created for one of Fred Astaire movies (name slips my mind right now). Watch Fred Astaire do the move the best:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKZOmmnBt2M

Anyway, I think the truth of Jujitsu/Jujutsu pronounced correctly in Japanese is similar to something I've found in Cantonese: Neither pronunciation is right. While I don't know Japanese, I'd be willing to speculate the correct pronunciation lies somewhere between "i" and "u" (even if it leans more towards short vowel "u")

As far as "jujitsu" being a poor translation, I don't think that's the case. I think somewhere along the line, someone decided "jujutsu" wasn't quite right - after all, it's not JEW JEWT SUE. Whether it was right or wrong to do, someone probably came to the conclusion "jujitsu" flowed phonetically better because of the long vowel, short vowel, long vowel transition. And, JEW JET SUE (with a stop-plosive "t" pronunciation) was born out of that strife.

Symbolic languages are the only ones which have this problem. Spanish is written phonetically, but the 'j" sound is really more like an "h" - except its not really an "h" but more like the speaker is trying to hock up a small loogie.

Besides, "Got Juts?" would not be as amusing as the "Got Jits?" T-shirt.


Edit: LOL! Both the FireFox 2.0 and the Google's toolbar spell checkers want to change Jujutsu to Jujitsu. :smile:

[Matt Stone]

How ironic on a thread such as this you don't know the drill of which you speak is CARIOCA.

Not ironic. I don't play soccer, but I do have to contend with wannabe athletes who do play soccer who routinely refer to said drill as "kari okey," and who spell it in written transmission as "karaoke."

It comes from a tap dance step. Oddly, the step was named by a Hollywood choreographer from a dance of the same name created for one of Fred Astaire movies (name slips my mind right now).

I've learned something new. Yay me.

Anyway, I think the truth of Jujitsu/Jujutsu pronounced correctly in Japanese is similar to something I've found in Cantonese: Neither pronunciation is right. While I don't know Japanese, I'd be willing to speculate the correct pronunciation lies somewhere between "i" and "u" (even if it leans more towards short vowel "u")

Though I suspect you're onto something with this, I maintain that the pronunciation is, in fact, the "oo" sound. I draw this opinion from living in Japan for just shy of 4 years (Jan 1999 - Sep 2002), working with actual, real, live Japanese people on a daily basis, as well as studying Japanese formally and informally. It's a very abrupt, brief pronunciation, but the vowel sound is certainly the "oo" and not the "ih" or "uh" suggested elsewhere.

after all, it's not JEW JEWT SUE

You're right. It's "joo," "joo," and "tsoo," with the "tsu" being either a "ts" or "tsoo" depending on regional dialect, as opposed to "joo," "joot," and "soo."

Symbolic languages are the only ones which have this problem. Spanish is written phonetically, but the 'j" sound is really more like an "h" - except its not really an "h" but more like the speaker is trying to hock up a small loogie.

Additionally, most Western languages possess nearly as many, if not all, of the same sounds. Easter (Asian) languages often possess sounds that are completely absent from Western languages altogether, making translation and transliteration a nightmare at best (see also the pronunciation of Mandarin Chinese, whether romanized with Pinyin or W-G methods, specific simple example being Mandarin "shi" or W-G "shi'h" for the number 10).

I think, in the jujutsu example, it's an issue of English speakers being so arrogant as to assume that because foreign words are written with English letters (in order to cater to the demonstrated resistance of Americans, in this case, to learn English properly, much less to learn any other language) they are necessarily pronounced according to English rules.

Besides, "Got Juts?" would not be as amusing as the "Got Jits?" T-shirt.

You may have something there...

[theeveryman]

And you study aykeedough, the style Youahsheeba created.

At lteast i study an actual MA...Yiliquan sounds like something out of a crappy chop socky movie watched by fat white-trash hillbillies...

[Tom Kagan]

Not ironic. I don't play soccer, but I do have to contend with wannabe athletes who do play soccer who routinely refer to said drill as "kari okey," and who spell it in written transmission as "karaoke."

A bit off topic, but the very same drill, CARIOCA, is used for GPP within some elite MA circles. It can be useful.

... And (since you are so worked up over the J?uj?tsu transliterations) since CARIOCA is also relevant to MA training, perhaps you should consider becoming a word Nazi on this one, too. :smile:

[Matt Stone]

At lteast i study an actual MA...Yiliquan sounds like something out of a crappy chop socky movie watched by fat white-trash hillbillies...

You study an "actual" MA? But I thought you listed aikido as what you study... Aikido does not necessarily equal martial art. I studied aikido years ago, and left because one of the senior students (not sure what "rank" he was; he was a long-haired, hippy-esque, Seagal wannabe strutting about in hakama) got upset because I hit him when he didn't execute his miraculous technique sufficiently well. That was pretty much the end of my concern with continued training in aikido...

And your basis for chop-sockery stems from what, precisely? Please, enlighten me O-theeveryman, share your mystically endowed knowledge with us non-hakama-wearing, non-dancing-with-a-LARPing-partner, commoners...

A bit off topic, but the very same drill, CARIOCA, is used for GPP within some elite MA circles. It can be useful.

... And (since you are so worked up over the J?uj?tsu transliterations) since CARIOCA is also relevant to MA training, perhaps you should consider becoming a word Nazi on this one, too.

Never debated the potential utility of the drill. It's always entertaining to see Soldiers who pride themselves on their fitness and "bad-assery" unable to touch their toes due to inflexibility, unable to stand on one leg due to a lack of balance, unable to execute guerilla drills due to a lack of coordinated strength, and unable to do the Carioca drill due to a general lack of pedal dexterity...

And I don't think it's about being a "word Nazi." I'm not worked up (though it can frustrate me when people refuse to correct themselves; I speak a smattering of Japanese after living there, whereas the best some other folks get is ordering sushi at their local Japanese restaurant), I just chimed in on a thread like everyone else did. I speak English, and I expect others who speak English to speak it with a reasonably passing degree of fluency. Accepting lowered standards (in anything, really) contributes to the overall decline in fluency and literacy. Look at how common language was spoken only 100 years ago... Compared to what passes as modern English, the common dock worker with an 8th grade education was probably capable of better word smithing than a high school senior today. I correct people I work with when they misuse English, especially given that in our line of work being well-spoken and able to write well are significantly beneficial attributes...

If someone is misspelling, mispronouncing, or misusing a word, isn't it simply common courtesy to correct that other person to help them to stop embarrassing themselves further? Isn't Bullshido's stated mission to intervene, and to some perceptions interfere, in order to help correct those who are less than correct in what they're doing? Those here who would say "leave well enough alone," or "it's okay, use it how you like," are echoing what bullshit martial artists say when someone points out the flaws in their art, their curriculum, their training method, etc.

Bottom line, wrong (in any given thing) is wrong when there are established standards by which to measure a given performance. Be it "dead" fight training, be it an ignorant adherence to outdated training methodologies, or be it improper use, pronunciation, and spelling of foreign language terms, wrong is wrong.

[DCS]

Why people engages in heathened debate about proper transliteration of foreign words in the

Traditonal Martial Arts and Styles Forum

?????

I don't get it.

Edit. Solved.
:P