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  1. OnceLost is offline
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    Here's looking at you, squid.

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2007 1:15pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Ke?po, MMA ultra-newb

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I know - it's a gift. I melt in the rain.
    "Reason is a choice. Wishes and whims are not facts, nor are they a means to discovering them. Reason is our only way to grasping reality -- it's our basic tool of survival. We are free to evade the effort of thinking, to reject reason, but we are not free to avoid the penalty of the abyss we refuse to see."
    - Terry Goodkind, "Faith of the Fallen"
  2. Fenris is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2007 5:27pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks for the welcome. I just recently became an actual member after lurking here for a decent amount of time now. This forum is tremendously educating. The people who frequent it seem to generally hail from intelligent stock -as opposed to most other online discussion groups devoted to the Martial Arts.

    But concerning commercialism in the Martial Arts...I think we need the North American equivalent of what happened about sixty years ago in Brazil -i.e., a time were a group systematically goes about and publically shames all phony Martial Arts schools and shows their useless curriculums for what they really are by way of challenging them to an actual fight. I would pay money to see a black belt from one of these marketing-obsessed dojos attempt to hold their own against a fighter trained the old fashioned way (i.e. physical conditioning and lots of real combat).
  3. OnceLost is offline
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    Here's looking at you, squid.

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2007 6:12pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Ke?po, MMA ultra-newb

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think it's the money that's the issue. I can't swear to this, but I would guess that a number of those 'challenge' matches were about gaining students via proving superiority. In North America, martial arts students are a dime a dozen (with a discount for children under 4).
    "Reason is a choice. Wishes and whims are not facts, nor are they a means to discovering them. Reason is our only way to grasping reality -- it's our basic tool of survival. We are free to evade the effort of thinking, to reject reason, but we are not free to avoid the penalty of the abyss we refuse to see."
    - Terry Goodkind, "Faith of the Fallen"
  4. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/05/2007 6:22pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OnceLost
    Has anyone seen a previously reputable school make the slide toward McDojo-ism?

    Up until a few months ago, I attended a pretty decent ke?po school. Yeah, there was kata and belt testing, but resistence started early and instruction was good. It provided what I was looking for and gave me a wide range of tools that I sucessfully used on multiple occasions when I was an LEO (for just under 5 years).

    After a while, the 'old school' people left for various reasons (mostly moving out of town), and the 'newer crowd' didn't seem to be as interested in resisting. More reliance was put on memorized techniques (and the number you had learned) and the classes for advanced students became, almost without exception, a kata class. The school wasn't offering what I wanted any more, so I cut my attendance down to 'infrequently' and starting looking around for something new. Motivated by the kind, gentle, caring people here on Bullshido (both of them), I found a local MMA club that I've attended all of once (but am looking forward to more).

    Not to be philosophical about it, but I wasn't entirely sure if *my* desires had changed or if the school environment itself had changed.

    Last week, I happened to drive past the ke?po school and I noticed that the sign outside read, "Mixed Martial Arts and Self Defense." I haven't gone in a few weeks, but there was no one with any actual MMA background when I was there (as opposed to having experience in several styles and calling THAT MMA)...to be fair, I haven't bothered to check if there is anyone with MMA creds there. I'm just finding that as another symptom of commercialization.

    This thread is not intended to school or style bash - I enjoyed the school while I was there. As is typical on Bullshido, I don't have a problem with anyone making their living from MA - I am interested in hearing if anyone else has watched a school they were involved with become commercialized.
    Yes, I watched the de-evolution over a 9 year period. I watched our better fighters (yes IMO) leave and refused to listen to reason. When I finish my article on the style it will probably sound familiar.

    I actually unwittingly have videotape evidence of the slide(no you will not see it until we see how the Chinese forum turns out).
  5. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/05/2007 6:23pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OnceLost
    I think it's the money that's the issue. I can't swear to this, but I would guess that a number of those 'challenge' matches were about gaining students via proving superiority. In North America, martial arts students are a dime a dozen (with a discount for children under 4).
    It was in ours and we don't have kids classes at least, not in 2006.
  6. Fenris is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/05/2007 9:29pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Good point OnceLost, I never thought about the fact that it may have been an underlying urge to expand the school (and therefore make money) which motivated the classic BJJ challenge matches. Although that is a kind of commercialism I'm all too happy to embrace. The notion of martial arts schools/gyms/dojos all competing with one another over who can produce the most effective fighters with superior conditioning is a beautiful thought (and to my knowledge this may actually be happening in some areas). It seems like there's two streams of commericialism running the martial arts world then: one devoted to making money from flash, the other, substance.

    Wait a sec -of course there are two streams. I basically just re-hashed the whole MMA vs. traditionalist martial arts situation with what I said above.

    Yeesh.
    Last edited by Fenris; 2/05/2007 9:33pm at .
  7. OnceLost is offline
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    Here's looking at you, squid.

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    Posted On:
    2/06/2007 9:08am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Ke?po, MMA ultra-newb

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yes, but you did it succintly, so it's alright <grin>

    The notion of martial arts schools/gyms/dojos all competing with one another over who can produce the most effective fighters with superior conditioning is a beautiful thought
    But too many people don't WANT that - they're happy with LARPing. Of course, they're even happier when they don't have to admit that their MA isn't really getting them ready for teh streetz, but even once they become fully informed consumers they STILL train at a "flash" school.
    "Reason is a choice. Wishes and whims are not facts, nor are they a means to discovering them. Reason is our only way to grasping reality -- it's our basic tool of survival. We are free to evade the effort of thinking, to reject reason, but we are not free to avoid the penalty of the abyss we refuse to see."
    - Terry Goodkind, "Faith of the Fallen"
  8. datdamnmachine is offline
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    Jiu Jitsu - Sometimes passing just isn't an option.

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    Posted On:
    2/07/2007 6:54pm

    supporting member
     Style: BJJ, Unauthorized Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OnceLost
    Yes, but you did it succintly, so it's alright <grin>


    But too many people don't WANT that - they're happy with LARPing. Of course, they're even happier when they don't have to admit that their MA isn't really getting them ready for teh streetz, but even once they become fully informed consumers they STILL train at a "flash" school.
    Not sure whey women would do such a thing but I know the guys do it cause it gets them all the "Hawt Chicks".
  9. OnceLost is offline
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    Here's looking at you, squid.

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    Posted On:
    2/08/2007 8:56am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Ke?po, MMA ultra-newb

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    This may reveal some of my reading habits, but a guy named Terry Goodkind has written a series of sword & sorcery type fantasy novels with a set of "Wizard's Rules." That kinda geeky set-up was to introduce Wizard's First Rule (also the name of the first book):

    "People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true. People's heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so all are easier to fool."
    "Reason is a choice. Wishes and whims are not facts, nor are they a means to discovering them. Reason is our only way to grasping reality -- it's our basic tool of survival. We are free to evade the effort of thinking, to reject reason, but we are not free to avoid the penalty of the abyss we refuse to see."
    - Terry Goodkind, "Faith of the Fallen"
  10. War Wizard is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/08/2007 4:41pm


     Style: Judo - Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by It is Fake??
    Yes, I watched the de-evolution over a 9 year period. I watched our better fighters (yes IMO) leave and refused to listen to reason. When I finish my article on the style it will probably sound familiar.

    I actually unwittingly have videotape evidence of the slide(no you will not see it until we see how the Chinese forum turns out).
    I know what you're style you're talking about and I'm looking forward to the article.
    "Keep a sharp knife, shiny boots and be on time."
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