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  1. DaveTart is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/02/2007 9:34am

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     Style: Lau Gar

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Sauce
    Okay, we'll do it your way : What did/could have Dominick McCarthy awarded him his 5th Dan in?

    See my point?
    Not really.
    By Mike's admission: It was in Zen Judo.
    However, "Dominick McCarthy gave me a 5th Dan in Zen Judo" is not the same as "the BZJFA gave me 5th Dan in Zen Judo" No matter how you dress it up.
    As I've said in cases of fraud etc you have to be precise.

    Saying "Mike claims to be a 5th Dan with the BZJFA" fails all sorts of basic levels of evidence. It is demonstrably untrue (as far as I can see) that he has ever claimed this. .

    All I'm saying is: You have to deal with the facts as they are, and attack those. There is no point destroying straw men, all it does is weaken your argument.

    His JJ grade should be taken with a pinch of salt anyway, because it's in a style that he made up
    Now this is more like it! I think it's clear from his site that he got to at least 3rd Dan JJ in some other style: Kito Ryu under Sassahara Sensei? Perhaps he got further than that under Bill Heffer? I'm sure we can check this.
    Plus, it's not that unusual for a MA'ist to start up their own style once they reach a high level. It's not like he made it up in the bath one day. He was (presumably) at least 3rd Dan in Kito Ryu.
    However, awarding yourself extra Dan's is very odd I would say.

    (Check out the FAOGB website and tell me which one of those "Masters" could have promoted him, in his own art no less?)
    No idea about that society, but i'll take a look at it. Incidently what is the KJJBA like? They awarded him the rank of Shinan Apparently.

    Also note that Bill Heffer died in 1989 (source http://www.bkjjf.com/History/history.html) so Mike couldn't have got at his 7th Dan from him.
    Very true. But he could of got any other grade by him. More googling I think!
    Last edited by DaveTart; 2/02/2007 9:41am at .
  2. OnceLost is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/02/2007 9:42am

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     Style: Ke?po, MMA ultra-newb

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    However, "Dominick McCarthy gave me a 5th Dan in Zen Judo" is not the same as "the BZJFA gave me 5th Dan in Zen Judo" No matter how you dress it up.
    As I've said in cases of fraud etc you have to be precise.
    As a professional fraud investigator, I will agree that precision is important. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean you ignore the implications made by a "suspect's" statement. For instance, if I say, "The manager of KFC served me some chicken," than the obvious implication is that the chicken served was KFC chicken. To back pedal from that and say, "I didn't SAY it was KFC chicken" ignores the reasonable implication that an objective reader gets from reading the statement.
    A half truth is still a lie.
    "Reason is a choice. Wishes and whims are not facts, nor are they a means to discovering them. Reason is our only way to grasping reality -- it's our basic tool of survival. We are free to evade the effort of thinking, to reject reason, but we are not free to avoid the penalty of the abyss we refuse to see."
    - Terry Goodkind, "Faith of the Fallen"
  3. Red Sauce is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/02/2007 9:57am

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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveTart
    Not really.
    By Mike's admission: It was in Zen Judo.
    However, "Dominick McCarthy gave me a 5th Dan in Zen Judo" is not the same as "the BZJFA gave me 5th Dan in Zen Judo" No matter how you dress it up.
    As I've said in cases of fraud etc you have to be precise.

    I think we fundamentally disagree on this one. But I can see where your going with your arguement.

    You are aware that Dominick McCarthy founded Zen Judo AND the BZJFA ?:-

    I don't imagine Dominick McCarthy went around giving out "Dominick McCarthy 5th Dan Judo Certificate"....no he would have done it through his organisation, the grading body.

    But lets not focus on that.


    Quote Originally Posted by DaveTart
    Now this is more like it! I think it's clear from his site that he got to at least 3rd Dan JJ in some other style: Kito Ryu under Sassahara Sensei? Perhaps he got further than that under Bill Heffer? I'm sure we can check this.
    Plus, it's not that unusual for a MA'ist to start up their own style once they reach a high level. It's not like he made it up in the bath one day. He was (presumably) at least 3rd Dan in Kito Ryu.
    [FONT=Arial]However, awarding yourself extra Dan's is very odd I would say. [/FONT



    No idea about that society, but i'll take a look at it. Incidently what is the KJJBA like? They awarded him the rank of Shinan Apparently.



    Very true. But he could of got any other grade by him. More googling I think!

    I havn't yet had time to find out timeline of his JJ Dan grades, I.e who and when, they don't ever appear to be one after the other from the same person/org. A telltale BS tactic.

    Feel free to post if you come accross anything.

    And it appears from a quick google KJJBA ( The Kempo Jujitsu Budo Association ) seems to be run by the same "Hanshi" P Browne that runs the.....Fighting Arts of Great Britain!

    (http://uk.geocities.com/angela_bowle...po/contact.htm)

    See what I mean about circle jerk organisation! Just a bunch of lonely guys self-promoting each other.
  4. Red Sauce is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/02/2007 10:00am

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    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OnceLost
    As a professional fraud investigator, I will agree that precision is important. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean you ignore the implications made by a "suspect's" statement. For instance, if I say, "The manager of KFC served me some chicken," than the obvious implication is that the chicken served was KFC chicken. To back pedal from that and say, "I didn't SAY it was KFC chicken" ignores the reasonable implication that an objective reader gets from reading the statement.
    A half truth is still a lie.

    Thankyou very much, the perfect analogy I was looking for. +rep *High five + Turkish Man Kiss
  5. OnceLost is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/02/2007 10:05am

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     Style: Ke?po, MMA ultra-newb

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Red Sauce, I'm solidly behind you on this one but you have to know something before you slip me tongue - I'm on top. Just wanted to get that out in the open.
    "Reason is a choice. Wishes and whims are not facts, nor are they a means to discovering them. Reason is our only way to grasping reality -- it's our basic tool of survival. We are free to evade the effort of thinking, to reject reason, but we are not free to avoid the penalty of the abyss we refuse to see."
    - Terry Goodkind, "Faith of the Fallen"
  6. DaveTart is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/02/2007 10:16am

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     Style: Lau Gar

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Red Sauce
    I think we fundamentally disagree on this one. But I can see where your going with your arguement.

    You are aware that Dominick McCarthy founded Zen Judo AND the BZJFA ?:-

    I don't imagine Dominick McCarthy went around giving out "Dominick McCarthy 5th Dan Judo Certificate"....no he would have done it through his organisation, the grading body.

    But lets not focus on that.
    This is true, but I really don't think we know enough to comment on the whole truth. I'm kinda tempted to go back to the club now - and ask...


    I havn't yet had time to find out timeline of his JJ Dan grades, I.e who and when, they don't ever appear to be one after the other from the same person/org. A telltale BS tactic.
    I have no idea on how transferrable grades are in JJ. In Lau Gar I know that (when a purple sash) I was told I would be able to grade straight to brown in a new club that wasn't my own as I clearly knew all the syllabus.

    And it appears from a quick google KJJBA ( The Kempo Jujitsu Budo Association ) seems to be run by the same "Hanshi" P Browne that runs the.....Fighting Arts of Great Britain!

    (http://uk.geocities.com/angela_bowle...po/contact.htm)

    See what I mean about circle jerk organisation! Just a bunch of lonely guys self-promoting each other.
    Circles within circles. Though running two organisation isn't that suspect in itself.

    Not sure I like the KFC analogy. Whilst an implication might exist in the mind of the reader, it is a contigent truth that the chicken was KFC. Lots of other factors exist. eg If the statment was "I went to the KFC managers house, and do you know what? he served me chicken!!" then you might imply it WASN'T KFC.
    In short, while it might be true that you COULD infer it was KFC, doesn't mean you SHOULD infer that. Basicly, from a critical thinking POV, you don't have enough info to go on...

    YET. :)
  7. OnceLost is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/02/2007 10:24am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Ke?po, MMA ultra-newb

    --
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    Not sure I like the KFC analogy. Whilst an implication might exist in the mind of the reader, it is a contigent truth that the chicken was KFC. Lots of other factors exist. eg If the statment was "I went to the KFC managers house, and do you know what? he served me chicken!!" then you might imply it WASN'T KFC.
    In short, while it might be true that you COULD infer it was KFC, doesn't mean you SHOULD infer that. Basicly, from a critical thinking POV, you don't have enough info to go on...
    You're looking at what the statement might have been - don't. Look at what the statement IS. Besides, the responsibility for inference rests more on the person who made the statement and the intent with which it was made than upon the person who hears it and draws a reasonable conclusion from it.

    The statement we're working with isn't "I went to McCarthy's private gym and he tested me to 5th Dan." The statement was:
    The 5th. Dan was awarded by Sensei Dominic McCarthy, 7th. Dan,
    Founder of Zen Judo, with whom I trained for many years.
    Let me replace the terms for you:
    The chicken was given to me by Dominic McCarthy, manager of KFC, with whom I ate for many years."
    "Reason is a choice. Wishes and whims are not facts, nor are they a means to discovering them. Reason is our only way to grasping reality -- it's our basic tool of survival. We are free to evade the effort of thinking, to reject reason, but we are not free to avoid the penalty of the abyss we refuse to see."
    - Terry Goodkind, "Faith of the Fallen"
  8. Red Sauce is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/02/2007 10:36am

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     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DaveTart
    I have no idea on how transferrable grades are in JJ. In Lau Gar I know that (when a purple sash) I was told I would be able to grade straight to brown in a new club that wasn't my own as I clearly knew all the syllabus.
    From here http://www.wjjk.co.uk/Instructors.htm

    Shihan Mike Johnson started his Martial Arts career in the 1960's with Judo.

    In 1964 he spent two years training in Juko Ryu Ju Jitsu under the tuition of Sensei Adrian Stevens 4th Dan.

    Soon he was running his own Judo Club as well as teaching all the children's classes at the Camberley Budokan, one of the premier Judo clubs in the UK at that time.

    Returning to the study of Ju Jitsu under Sensei Barrie Stevens 2nd Dan, Shihan Mike Johnson achieved his 1st Dan in Ju Jitsu in 1973.

    He then studied Kito Ryu Ju Jitsu under Sassahara Sensei for some time and was promoted to 3rd Dan by him.
    So he is a Shihan of Kempo Ju Jitsu - KJJBA
    7th Dan from Fighting Arts Of Great Britain
    Implied 3rd Dan in "Kito Ryu" Ju Jitsu
    Two years in "Juko Ryu" Ju Jitsu
    1st Dan in an unamed style of Ju Jitsu
    Also promoted along the way in some style of JJ by Sensei Bill Heffer, again details unconfirmed, and Mike and students are not exactly rushing to do so.

    Seems like he's transferred his grades all over the shop. But between different styles of JJ is alarming. Would love to confirm all the above too.
  9. sochin101 is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/02/2007 10:37am

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by DaveTart
    This is true, but I really don't think we know enough to comment on the whole truth. I'm kinda tempted to go back to the club now - and ask...
    That would certainly be interesting... it would be good to have Mike's stance on this.

    Quote Originally Posted by OnceLost
    A half truth is still a lie.
    Quoted for truth.
    That, my good man, is spot on.
    Where there is only a choice between cowardice and violence, I would advise violence.

    Gandhi

  10. OnceLost is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/02/2007 10:45am

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     Style: Ke?po, MMA ultra-newb

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thank you, kind sir.
    "Reason is a choice. Wishes and whims are not facts, nor are they a means to discovering them. Reason is our only way to grasping reality -- it's our basic tool of survival. We are free to evade the effort of thinking, to reject reason, but we are not free to avoid the penalty of the abyss we refuse to see."
    - Terry Goodkind, "Faith of the Fallen"
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