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  1. thomaspaine is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/29/2007 4:36am


     Style: No-Gi BJJ, Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Underhooks and butterfly guard

    Ever since I started using the butterfly guard it's been drilled into my head that you want to sit up and fight for underhooks. Either to get double underhooks, or to get an over-under to hit the basic butterfly guard sweep. I've noticed though that some people, in particular Jean-Jaque, Eddie Bravo, and some good people at my school, hit this sweep using double overhooks. I've tried this out on some noobs with moderate success; I find that an overhook makes the sweep a little tighter because the guy on top can't base out with that arm or just pull it out. Not to mention that I often end up with overhooks anyway because I think it's easier for the top man to pummel for underhooks. On the other hand I feel that it's too easy to flatten me out if I don't have an underhook, I have more leverage when hitting the sweep if I have an over-under. In the case that I do get flattened out, it's instinctive for me to pummel for an underhook and try to sit up, so maybe my problem with this sweep is just an underhook habit.

    I've also noticed that once I get to double underhooks, I basically have no game plan and I just kind of fiddle around until I'm forced into something else, like the over-under sweep I mentioned above. I suck at taking the back from here, and that captain kirk sweep where you roll the guy backwards into mount never works on anyone who isn't retarded.

    So what kind of butterfly guard do you all play? I realize that it's a dynamic guard, but are you mainly pummeling for underhooks and hitting sweeps using underhooks, or do you prefer using overhooks?

    Edit: Consider this in the context of no-gi grappling, since my school doesn't use the gi. [Comedy Police Edit]
    Last edited by Cassius; 1/29/2007 6:45am at .
  2. Cassius is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/29/2007 9:02am

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Pointless inflammatory joke deletion aside, I tend to play butterfly guard by shooting for deep underhooks. If we're rolling with the gi on, I'll start pulling their gi top out of their belt to try to choke them with it. Again, with the gi on, if I can't get underhooks, I'll immediately attack the neck with collar chokes (butterfly is a good position to get a really deep x-choke). This usually gives me a chance to get underhooks, if not always a tap.

    Back to no-gi land: When sweep time comes, I tend to overhook with my left arm unless I'm taking them back. My butterfly guard has fallen out of favor recently, just because people at my new school really seem to favor standing up out of my guard (or at least trying to) to attempt the pass. Because of that, I've spent more time working on a really aggressive climbing closed guard than butterfly guard, recently.
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
  3. JohnnyS is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/29/2007 5:10pm

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I don't use double overhooks personally, but if you are going to use it, then once you have the double overhook, rather than pulling your knees up to sweep, straighten your legs out. This will stretch out his base and make him a cylinder, and hence easier to sweep sideways.

    If you are going to use a single overhook then as you said you are prone to being put flat on your back. So if I use my left arm to overhook, I try and whizzer with it to put pressure on his shoulder and stop him passing to my left. Then my right hand grabs his left wrist and I sweep him to my right.
  4. Zankou is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/29/2007 8:36pm

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     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I love the overhook, yo. So easy to get, and it transitions beautifully into the reverse butterfly sweep (since it blocks the arm). With the gi on, getting double underhooks is pretty improbable.

    The key for me in getting the butterfly sweep to work is to twist and fall sideways on your shoulder --- that way you aren't getting flattened out. It's that explosive drive sidways that powers the sweep, and keeps you in a good position. Falling back sux0rz, and leaves you ready to be passed.
  5. JohnnyS is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/29/2007 10:25pm

    supporting member
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    P.S. I'll use either an underhook or overhook to get the sweep, but I prefer to use underhooks. The key is to get your opponent moving and basing out, then you can get the underhook.
  6. jnp is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/30/2007 12:47am

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ, wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    IME, if you get one or two overhooks, it's important to keep your overhooking elbow(s) clamped to your side, we call it heavy elbow, to prevent your opponent from posting with his arm and also to assist in staying tight to him so you can still elevate his legs if he tries to flatten you out. However, underhooks do make it easier to stay tight to your opponent.

    Basically, the butterfly guard remains viable as long as you stay tight/underneath your opponent with your hips. If he backs out and makes space, time to change your guard, no matter what type of hook you're using. You can always return to butterfly later.
    Shut the hell up and train.
  7. Gumby is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/30/2007 12:53am


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I prefer to play butterfly with either an underhook, or if my opponent gets the underhook, with a whizzer. Its hard to stay sitting up when fighting with an overhook/whizzer, but I dont mind when I get flattened out or when I dont have the leverage to finish a sweep. Against someone whos got a good base, I usually go for the sweep- that leaves them posting with their hand and briefly putting their weight forward so I can pull my other leg up and out for a triangle setup.

    Its hard to explain, but its a pain in the ass for people who like to pass with the underhook (considering most wh ouse it dont know how to) and its an effective counter for flexible people.
  8. Cassius is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/30/2007 12:59am

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
  9. jnp is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/30/2007 1:09am

    supporting memberforum leaderstaff
     Style: BJJ, wrestling

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Garbanzo Bean
    A couple random articles by Aesopian about overhooking and butterfly guard.

    http://www.aesopian.com/19/playing-b...h-an-overhook/
    Damn, most of my 'secrets' to the overhooking butterfly guard are illustrated in that article.

    [sarcasm]I hope nobody reads it.[/sarcasm]
    Shut the hell up and train.
  10. thomaspaine is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/30/2007 2:17am


     Style: No-Gi BJJ, Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Gumby
    I prefer to play butterfly with either an underhook, or if my opponent gets the underhook, with a whizzer. Its hard to stay sitting up when fighting with an overhook/whizzer, but I dont mind when I get flattened out or when I dont have the leverage to finish a sweep. Against someone whos got a good base, I usually go for the sweep- that leaves them posting with their hand and briefly putting their weight forward so I can pull my other leg up and out for a triangle setup.

    Its hard to explain, but its a pain in the ass for people who like to pass with the underhook (considering most wh ouse it dont know how to) and its an effective counter for flexible people.
    Yeah, a guy I train with kept doing it to me, which is what caused me to rethink the way I play butterfly. I kept thinking that I was about to pass because I had him flattened out with a far side underhook, and the next thing I know I'm in triangle city.

    I also like to do the butterfly sweep into x-guard combo, and I think the underhook might be more suited for that. Although if I straighten my legs like JohnnyS says to do with the overhooks, then I think it might be too hard for him to post out with his leg to stop the butterfly sweep. I'll try it out the next time I roll and see what happens.
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