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  1. Lothene is offline
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    Destroyer of Worlds

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    Ubon Ratchathani, Thailand (orig from Melb, Aust)
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    Posted On:
    1/29/2007 2:28am

    supporting member
     Style: Muay Thai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Staying crap forever?

    Are some people who start out **** at their chosen martial art just destined to stay **** forever no matter how hard they try, or if they keep turning up and making an effort are they eventually bound to improve and get to a reasonable level? How much of it is determined by your own efforts and how much is determined by genetics/past unftitness/ability to learn physical stuff?
  2. Anna Kovacs is offline
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    Spear Sister

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    Posted On:
    1/29/2007 2:36am

    supporting membersupporting member
     Style: Dancing the Spears

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've seen people who bust ass and train every day never really get any better. I don't know why. They just don't get it.

    I can't say why it is that they never get better but it's a phenom I've witnessed before. A lot of people just dont have the instinct for this fighting thing and never learn to relax, never learn to move properly, never learn go get over their flinch reflex or just plain never learn how to do anything.

    I've heard that if these types really bust ass they can get somewhere after a couple years but I've seen new people stay basically the same despite al efforts to help them. A lot of them just dont seem to catch on to the mechanics. make of it what one will.
  3. JohnnyCache is offline
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    All Out of Bubblegum

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    Posted On:
    1/29/2007 2:49am

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I think people do plateau. Sometimes you hit a point where you have to change how you think about what you're doing to improve any farther. Some things that can help are watching yourself on video and being very scathing in evaluations of how hard you're working - a lot of people who ask this question need to examine their training out of the gym and/or their lifestyles next to that of the people doing better. It's often the case that what you think is a lack of skill is a lack of fitness or strength - there are some things you can't "learn" to do until you reach a certain physical point.

    Also, some people need to train certain things harder to get to the level of other people - flexibllity is the specific I'm thinking. People have specific aptitudes that make it harder for them to pick up certain skillsets, that's true, but I haven't met too many healthy people who were so cursed in every area they couldn't make anything work for them. If you're a 6'5", 300 pound guy, you're probably going to want to find alternatives to capoeira, though.

    I also find that often, people in this situation have been working with the same set of martial arts peers for so long that they've fallen into a rut - training with a new set of people, attending some seminars, etc might help you alot. You might run into someone who explains something your coach does, but in a way that makes more personal sense to you, and suddenly you find yourself over a plateau.
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  4. Khun Kao is offline

    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    1/29/2007 3:57pm


     Style: MuayThai

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There is truth in what both AnnaTrocity and JohnnyCache have said. There are some people who just don't seem to "get it". Seems like no matter what you do, you simply can't reach them. I've had a number of these types as my students. Something as simple as keeping their guard up just doesn't seem to ever get across.

    But maybe its just the optimist in me, but I don't think its because they simply don't have the ability to improve. There is some kind of mental block that is preventing them from progressing past that "plateau". It may be different for each person, too. It may simply be that the person doesn't have a real desire to progress beyond a particular point. It may be that they are stuck in some sort of rut. It may be something simple that is just beyond their grasp and they need to find the right thing to push them to it.

    I can give an example or two....

    I used to train with a guy under my original MuayThai coach. The guy was good, just not real good and definately not great. He could do most of the techniques pretty well, but he simply didn't have that "fire in his belly". He was simply never able to add any "bad intentions" to his training. Even after having fought in the ring (and lost), he really never progressed to that next level where he could just cut loose..... He was a very intelligent and driven guy. Trained as hard as anyone. Was in great shape, etc, etc.... He just couldn't take it to that next level. I personally believe there was just something missing from his training experience that was preventing him from getting over that hump. We all tried to push him, and every now and then we'd see flashes of what he could truly do if he just "let go", but unfortunately it just never came together for him.

    There was another kid who used to be one of my students. A Thai kid, no less. He couldn't get some of the simplest things right. Like throwing jabs & crosses straight... keeping his hands up.... even working hard enough to break a sweat seemed like an alien idea to him. In his case, I truly believe he simply had no desire. I think he was a fan of MuayThai, but had no real desire to train. He would probably have preferred to be at home with his Playstation. He always seemed as if he was just going through the motions.... Nice kid though. Just no real desire.
  5. Ming Loyalist is offline
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    solves problems with violence

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    Posted On:
    1/29/2007 4:03pm

    supporting member
     Style: Judo, Hung Family Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Khun Kao
    he simply didn't have that "fire in his belly". He was simply never able to add any "bad intentions" to his training. Even after having fought in the ring (and lost), he really never progressed to that next level where he could just cut loose..... He was a very intelligent and driven guy. Trained as hard as anyone. Was in great shape, etc, etc.... He just couldn't take it to that next level.
    i think this happens to a lot of people. they are too nice in real life, and can't lose the nice guy thing in the ring and go full blast. they have the unfortunate desire to not hurt people. it's something i have been working on a lot in my training.
    "Face punches are an essential character building part of a martial art. You don't truly love your children unless you allow them to get punched in the face." - chi-conspiricy
    "When I was a little boy, I had a sailor suit, but it didn't mean I was in the Navy." - Mtripp on the subject of a 5 year old karate black belt
    "Without actual qualifications to be a Zen teacher, your instructor is just another roundeye raping Asian culture for a buck." - Errant108
    "Seriously, who gives a **** what you or Errant think? You're Asian males, everyone just ignores you, unless you're in a krotty movie." - new2bjj
  6. Kintanon is offline
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    Yes, I am smarter than you are.

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    Athens, Ga
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    Posted On:
    1/29/2007 4:24pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I have somewhat of a problem with that too. I spent a long time in TKD as a black belt doing stuff like helping out in the kids class and with the lower ranks, and of course TKD sparring isn't exactly the meanest thing you can compete in. So I have a hard time determining when it's "OK" for me to go ahead and let go and stop worrying about my opponents health. How do MT gyms handle that kind of thing? When you guys spar how hard is it? I've yet to see any sparring over at Hardcore in the standup classes so I have no idea how they handle it.

    Kintanon
  7. Ryno is offline

    Senior Member

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    Posted On:
    1/29/2007 4:51pm


     Style: FMA, Jujutsu/Judo/SAMBO

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, strong desire really does make up for a lot of genetic limitations. And on the other hand, lack of desire can really hurt someone with a lot of physical potential. You've got to have a fighter's mindset to be able to fight really well.

    We had a huge guy working out with us a while back, that I though could be just a monster. He was about 6'5, 290 or so, with good reach and tremendous natural strength. So anyway, I start training him up teaching him how to punch use his reach, shift his weight, etc., but the guy would absolutely not commit to anything. I kept encouraging him to just cut it loose and throw his weight into his strikes. Even though he technically understood how to do things, he wouldn't stop from holding back. For all of his natural size and strength, he still hit like a gnat.

    For this guy, I think he had several issues working against him. First, he had a generally passive personality. Second, although he liked the idea of learning to fight, he really didn't like fighting. Third, he was very prone to not pushing himself, and making excuses as to why he couldn't work out harder.

    He was a very nice guy, but unless something(s) changed, he really will struggle with any martial art/sport.
  8. Anna Kovacs is offline
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    Spear Sister

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    Posted On:
    1/29/2007 4:53pm

    supporting membersupporting member
     Style: Dancing the Spears

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintanon
    I have somewhat of a problem with that too. I spent a long time in TKD as a black belt doing stuff like helping out in the kids class and with the lower ranks, and of course TKD sparring isn't exactly the meanest thing you can compete in. So I have a hard time determining when it's "OK" for me to go ahead and let go and stop worrying about my opponents health. How do MT gyms handle that kind of thing? When you guys spar how hard is it? I've yet to see any sparring over at Hardcore in the standup classes so I have no idea how they handle it.

    Kintanon

    When I get in the ring with an opponent that is going to try and hurt me I go into fight or flight mode and it takes care of itself.
  9. leere_form is offline
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    Registered Member

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    Posted On:
    1/29/2007 4:58pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    yeah, i'm pretty sure life is cruel enough to say that some people will always suck at things they'd love to be really good at. (ever see amadeus?)

    i get complimented on my jiu-jitsu, but i can't throw people in judo for ****. i'd love to be a judo phenom, but it's coming slowly if at all. i'm generally a pretty chill guy, so friday night i tried to pick up the pace a bit and be more aggressive in judo.

    i got dropped hard on my right shoulder and now i can't train, so i guess we'll see later.

    part of my problem is that i'm not actually confident in my own strength and ability to move larger guys, although i know intellectually that i can do it. i try too often to just be an opportunist and a technician and not muscle them around, but i think that's given me an unrealistically poor opinion of my judo abilities---since my technique is just not at that level while everyone else is setting me up with their strength. (i'm also about 145-150, and i'm definitely the smallest judoka training right now)

    i've been training judo more than anyone else in this town, i think, and i'm still getting my ass handed to me. i've been asking myself quite a bit lately if i'm just doomed to suck.

    i might be, but i don't know that i am, so i'm going to keep training.

    in fact, as soon as i get better i'm going to take up freestyle wrestling to learn some takedowns from a new perspective. i'm also just beginning a weight training program specifically for grappling, so we'll see if i'm doomed to suck or not.

    it's also hard to seperate your actual skill from your performance against the guys in your club or in your fights or whatever. if i were training with the japanese national judo team, i would probably think i sucked really bad. then i would come over here to the states and own everybody.

    so, for one thing, suckage is relative. i'm sure there are plenty of people who kick less ass than you. i mean, some people train aikido.

    oh, and: if you're interested in beating someone in particular then study them, scout their moves, and make a game plan for taking them out. it will improve your game and make you feel good about yourself once you pull it off.

    i have a tani-otoshi waiting for this one guy, you better believe it ...
  10. Torakaka is offline
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    Do you eat breakfast?

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    Posted On:
    1/29/2007 5:01pm

    supporting member
     Style: Kitty Pow Pow!!!

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kintanon
    I have somewhat of a problem with that too. I spent a long time in TKD as a black belt doing stuff like helping out in the kids class and with the lower ranks, and of course TKD sparring isn't exactly the meanest thing you can compete in. So I have a hard time determining when it's "OK" for me to go ahead and let go and stop worrying about my opponents health. How do MT gyms handle that kind of thing? When you guys spar how hard is it? I've yet to see any sparring over at Hardcore in the standup classes so I have no idea how they handle it.

    Kintanon
    Sparring in most muay thai places is generally fairly light and technique based (except for the jerks that don't really understand the purpose of sparring and treat it like a fight). I think that after fighting in the ring (like actual matches) a few times you get used to the flow of a fight, and I think before you really get the hang of it you have to rely more on the fight or flight thing to do well. I don't really get the fight or fight thing when I fight, so I tend to rely on how well I can adapt to that flow. Sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't.
    Ranked #9 internationally at 118lbs by WIKBA http://www.womenkickboxing.com/wikba...rch%202009.htm
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