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  1. JohnnyCache is offline
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    All Out of Bubblegum

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    Posted On:
    1/29/2007 9:08pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    It's not that the size gap matters less, it's that the skill gap between trained and untrained is greater. I think an un- or semi- trained striker has a better chance against a trained striker then an un- or semi- trained grappler vs a grappler.
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  2. RunningDog is offline
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    nail conditioning

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    Posted On:
    1/29/2007 9:16pm


     Style: Rehab

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyCache
    It's not that the size gap matters less, it's that the skill gap between trained and untrained is greater. I think an un- or semi- trained striker has a better chance against a trained striker then an un- or semi- trained grappler vs a grappler.
    Not sure about that, take top boxers for example, it looks simple but they're drilling and sparring for years: timing, awareness, striking and evasion techniques are incredibly finely tuned. It's a totally different skillset, but you can't say it's an inferior skillset.
  3. Firebrand is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/29/2007 9:29pm


     Style: BJJ, Sambo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Just to add fuel to the fire. Supposed you are fighting a 400 pound guy with a low base with rather slow hands and is slow on his feet. Lets say you are a trained boxer with fast hands and some grappling. Would you rather try, and I do mean try, to take it to the ground or duke it out?

    Lets say you are on the street and you manage to take the guy to the ground hard. The guy outweighs you by 100 pounds. You are still standing. Would you rather do some tap dancing on the guy's body or take your chances on the ground? BJJ is a great art. But I don't know that grappling, especially grappling on the ground, is necessarily the only option against bigger opponents.
  4. JohnnyCache is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/29/2007 9:35pm

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I didn't.

    I said the gap between trained and untrained people was wider in grappling ... ie, it takes less time to learn to out-grapple a non-grappler then to out strike a non-striker.

    The "martial arts promise" of being able to offset your small size is filled sooner by grappling, I really think that.

    That's not the same as it being "superior" or the "only option"
    Last edited by JohnnyCache; 1/29/2007 9:40pm at .
    There's no choice but to confront you, to engage you, to erase you. I've gone to great lengths to expand my threshold of pain. I will use my mistakes against you. There's no other choice.
  5. RunningDog is offline
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    nail conditioning

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    Posted On:
    1/29/2007 9:44pm


     Style: Rehab

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyCache
    The "martial arts promise" of being able to offset your small size is filled sooner by grappling, I really think that.
    I misunderstood you above. That's definitely true. Even just intensively drilling/sparring with a few simple takedowns allows you to dump people on their heads/ribs, and that level can be reached in a few months. The floor makes a very handy weapon.
    With the same amount of drilling of striking a smaller player is still very unlikely to get the KO.
  6. Gumby is offline

    BJJ Purple Belt

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    Posted On:
    1/30/2007 1:34am


     Style: Brazilian Jiu Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Niceguy
    I have been grappling and training bjj for about 3 years now and often you hear the mantra that bjj was designed for a smaller opponent to defeat a larger one (albeit less skilled)

    But really isnt this just a true with the other fuctional martial arts like boxing, Muay Thai, wrestling, judo, sambo?

    For example, cro-cop Ko'ed Bob Sapp despite almost a 150 lb weight difference (220 vs 370) with his kick boxing skills.

    Evander holyfield was a pretty small heavy weight and had great success against other larger boxers, who btw were also pretty skilled fighters.

    Now dont get me wrong, I love BJJ and think its an excellent martial art, hell i train it and Muay Thai myself, that being said, does BJJ stylist really have the much of an edge against larger opponents then a well trained Muay Thai guy or a judoka?

    Discuss.
    Training in any effective fighting style is going to give someone considerable advantages over someone, even if that person is a larger fighter.

    Using Cro Cop vs Bob Sapp, Cro Cop is known for being exceptionally strong (although not as strong as Sapp) so one is forced to ask: could cro cop show someone else the same technique and have that person defeat bob sapp the same way? Unless that person is also quite strong, its very unlikely. Talk about jiu jitsu now, and Nogueira can show someone how to apply an armbar from the mount, and its going to work against everyone because it relies on you moving yourself rather than moving your oppoent. Then you start to get into the topic of chokes, which will also work on anyone, regardless of their size and strength. Some guys have a chin that makes them almost impossible to KO (Mark Hunt and Nogueira, for example) but if you slap a choke on them they'll fall just as quickly as someone half their size.

    Now, beyond techniques themselves, early MMA events have shown the frequency with which fights go to the ground, despite fighters intentions not to do so. If you're a good boxer and you're landing shots on someone whos about 80lbs heavier than you, chances are that person is going to get pissed and grab hold of you (since he obviously isnt fairing well in the striking battle). Whether accidental or intentional, the fight often goes to the ground with the larger man on top in a good position to beat his opponent who can not strike back. Just look at Dan Severn's appearance in UFC 4- ok granted hes a quality wrestler, but once his first two opponents hit him with a few shots, severn quickly said "**** this" and sent both his opponents to the ground. The two strikers didnt have the grappling ability to defend the takedowns, but moreover their striking skills did not prevent the clinch (or the takedown) from happening.

    To attempt to summarize it all: jiu jitsu doesnt just teach smaller people how to fight, it teaches weaker people as well- teach someone like Royce Gracie to throw a KO punch and I'll believe that striking is just as viable as grappling
  7. Raining_Blood is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/30/2007 2:40am


     Style: Wrestling, MT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My take on the situation is this. I have meet some pretty lethal stand up strikers with absolutely no training but I have yet to meet a kickass grappler with no training. I think that the ability to punch comes naturally yet the ability to grapple does not. Punching is a much simplier mechanism than learning how to use leverage, balance and all the other aspects of grappling. Alot of grappling is also knowing knowing various moves for various situations where the basic punch can be used in almost any situation.
  8. kracker is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/30/2007 9:31am


     Style: BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by NotAKimura
    striking is more natural than grappling for most people. grappling involves being very close to your opponent which most people aren't used to and/or don't like.

    it's possible to strike effectively with no training, while grappling effectively requires at least some training.
    True but GnP is even more easy and natural than standup striking, at least for me anyone else find this?
  9. M1K3 is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/30/2007 9:49am


     Style: submission grappling

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    There are too many variables involved here. If the bigger person you are fighting is your typical middle aged American, then just about any skill set would give you an advantage, including Wing Chun. On the other hand if he is or was a serious football player, is a lot bigger than you and still likes to lift, the odds are not nearly as good, especially if he has seen a UFC or 2.

    Also the location makes a big difference. Situation 2 reverts back to your advantage if this happens on the mats at your local gym. However if it is at your local bar things suddenly donít look as rosy. There isnít anything to keep him from power cleaning a table and deciding to let you play catch with it.

    All in all, the only skill which allows smaller to be on equal terms with bigger is gun fu. According to a saying in the old west, ďGod didnít make people equal, Col. Colt didĒ.

    So, our lesson for today boys and girls is, if you are going to pick fights with people bigger than you, make sure they are couch potatoes or other types of slugs.
  10. Donkey_Fizzle is offline

    Using Donkey Guard to Sniffz Your Feetz

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    Posted On:
    1/30/2007 10:08am


     Style: Kick Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    A larger person, hieght wise, usually has a reach advantage. Even if you are a more skilled, but smaller, striker you are going to have to deal with it. Reach counts for alot on your feet. Being a tall fucker myself I don't usually have to deal with somebody with a greater reach. Being used to having the advatage seriously screws me up when I spar with guys my hieght. It throws me off. No on the ground, once again, I am used to usually dealing with small people. Too small is a pain in the ass. I tried putting this little guy in a triangle and he could just duck out because I couldn't get it tight enough to choke him. On the other hand when he went to armbar me could just picked him up and slam him. So I guess it all worked out. Now when I had Johnny in a triangle on the other hand, he used his size to stack me up and I had to release it to get out from under him (you big fucker). I don't know if I have made a point or not. There are advantages and disadvantages on both sides of the size issue. So train for both and you won't have to be suprised.
    Amateur MMA record: 8-3-1
    Pro MMA record: 3-1
    Status: Semi retarded... I mean retired
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