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  1. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

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    Posted On:
    1/27/2007 10:45am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Heh, cheers MONGO.

    Grappling really needs a form of UML... a UGL if you will.
  2. Judobum is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/27/2007 4:25pm


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    No-gi uchimata is kind of difficult because of the kuzushi usually involved in the throw. You can replace the lapel/back grip with an underhook but the sleeve grip is trickier. You don't get the same grip and pulling power with holding the wrist, arm or elbow as you do when you have a strong sleeve grip.

    That said I think it's definately got a place in MMA/no-gi grappling. I've seen it almost exclusively used by MMA fighter with judo backgrounds though so I doubt it's something for someone without the background to pick up. In MMA/no-gi I can see it's usefulness in a clinch position where you have one underhook. You can't really sprawl out of an uchi-mata so it's an attractive takedown option against a fighter with a strong sprawl.

    The downside is the aforementioned landing position. You are definately at risk of being backmounted if you follow through too much. You would have to look at the reason you're doing the throw. For MMA I can see it used as an offensive attack rather than a takedown. It's would be fairly easy with a no-gi style uchi-mata to plant the guy on his head or shoulder to try to do damage. You would load the guy up on your leg, do a hop to break his balance and then drive straight down with the underhook arm. Normally you would also pull with the sleeve hand to throw him onto his back but you could ease off on that so instead you'd drive him onto his head and shoulder area. Karo does this a fair bit. You'd land safer as well and would probably end up in the guy's guard since his defensive reaction would likely be to go there since if he stays down you'll get his back (which would be a good thing too).

    As a pure takedown you would be looking to land in a side control position with a full rotation throw and I think that would be hard to do. Your own momentum would enable your opponent to pull you over and into a back mount. A better takedown would be to initial enter with the uchi-mata, pop the leg up and then lean down and ankle pick the leg not being attacked by the uchi-mata. It's not as tricky as it sounds and would land you into guard or half-guard which is likely a better position than you'd get from the full rotation throw.
  3. MONGO is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/27/2007 4:33pm

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     Style: na

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ^^^^^^^^^^ The above is why I prefer driving techniques for takedowns in BJJ. Ouchi gari and many of the reaps have driving Kuzushi so they are not so gi dependent.
  4. Cassius is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/27/2007 5:17pm

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     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I've used a modified no gi uchi mata fairly successfully in class, but not in a grappling tournament. It's kind of an ugly throw because of how it's modified, but it seems to work pretty well for everyone that I used to train with.

    First off, I do it from a tight whizzer/overhook. I like that pressure better than an underhook for this takedown, and it has surprise Kombo bonus points. Second, I try to grab as high up on the arm as I can with the hand that would normally be grabbing the gi sleeve. The wrist is okay, but the elbow seems to really disrupt my opponent's balance. Third, as long as I'm tight on my opponent, I don't mind adjusting to offbalance him by taking little hops backward before I nail the big hop and really try for the takedown. Yes, this throw is ugly, and it doesn't help that I am a BJJer who thus far has had a better wrestling coach than Judo coach for takedowns.

    If I can't nail the takedown, here's where the whizzer comes in handy: Drop your grip on your opponent's far arm while keeping the whizzer on the near arm, bend down hard and fast from the waist while keeping one leg off the ground, snatch the leg you have been trying to unbalance, and roll into a kneebar. Bonus style points if you snake the arm you're using to snatch the leg through and brace it against the back of your own head as you roll and finish one handed from a sexy reclining position.

    In the event that the kneebar fails or your tournament rules are crappy, you can easily take side control or maybe even mount from this roll instead of finishing with the kneebar. Just don't let go of the leg until after you've disentangled your own legs from it. That would be bad.
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
  5. Teh El Macho is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/28/2007 1:23am

    supporting member
     Style: creonte on hiatus

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MONGO
    Scrapper too. (Damn it)

    A bent over player can fall victim to a spinning uchimata but that is if they are already broken down to the front and close to the end of their toes (balance wise). It is great for a side enter uchimata but it is prone to over turning because it often requires a dynamic entry. When the throw is complete, the thrower is usually face up with the victim underneath him.

    One of the more dangerous factors is the eventual back mount from someone that has a clue as to what Judo transitions are like.

    In wrestling, I believe the throw is a lifting hip throw (I'm unsure of terms because of the language barrier of learning the technique in Japan). It requires a single deep whizzer or underhook and SS penetrating step to straighten the back and then left the opponent. The far side arm is usually in an armdrag grip above the elbow.



    And........Throwing a pure BJJer is like choking out a CMAer, its easy (for the most part).
    The lines bolded above remind me of a class lesson we got about two months ago. The BJJ instructor was going through some Q&A, and one of the questions was regarding uchimata. I don't remember the details of this, but he basically baited the uchimata, and counted on that to flip through the throw and end on top of the thrower.

    His method was to be extremelly bent over, grabbing the opponents sleeves and pinning them to (or close to) the opponent's waist. He did this whenever he felt an uchimata coming (or baiting for it.) Assuming a right-right stance, as he is getting thrown from that position with the uchimata (that is, being thrown to his left), he grabs/hugs his opponent's torso while adding his own spin to the throw (spinning hard to his left, in the direction of the throw). At best, he lands on top of him; at worst, the both fall sideways.
    Read this for flexibility and injury prevention, this, this and this for supplementation, this on grip conditioning, and this on staph. New: On strenght standards, relationships and structural balance. Shoulder problems? Read this.

    My crapuous vlog and my blog of training, stuff and crap. NEW: Me, Mrs. Macho and our newborn baby.

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    The street argument is retarded. BJJ is so much overkill for the street that its ridiculous. Unless you're the idiot that picks a fight with the high school wrestling team, barring knife or gun play, the opponent shouldn't make it past double leg + ground and pound - Osiris
  6. Cassius is online now
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    Posted On:
    1/28/2007 1:46am

    supporting memberforum leader
     Style: Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by MONGO
    And........Throwing a pure BJJer is like choking out a CMAer, its easy (for the most part).
    Any pure BJJer that thinks it's a good idea to play takedowns with a good Judoka deserves what he gets.
    "No. Listen to me because I know what I'm talking about here." -- Hannibal
  7. MONGO is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/28/2007 9:41am

    supporting member
     Style: na

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    The whizzer/underhook variation that Garbanzo described is the one that was taught to me by a wrestler/shooter/BJJer with no Judo experience.

    One thing about it have some experience in Judo, the dynamics are completely different. Uchimata is a throw that off balances the opponent-lifts them up- and then rotates them while snapping them into the ground. It is very powerful and it is hard to take a good deal of those types of throws without some pain or injury (even if you have good ukemi).

    The wrestling equivalent just doesn't provide the same torque on the spine and it can be done with less risk of over rotation and possible countering.

    Uchimata dynamics in a no-gi situation can be very risky because of the ease of escape without clothing to grip.
  8. Scrapper is offline
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    Fear and bullets.

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    Posted On:
    1/28/2007 10:17am

    staff
     Style: MMA

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Did someone say my name? How the **** did I miss this thread!

    Uchimata and harai I use a lot, but as Mongo hath stated, the landing position can be problematic. It's just ALWAYS there against a lot of wrestler and no-gi type fighters. They clinch up and lean way over. All the time. Even when they know me and what I'm gonna do...they still do it. I swear it's hard-wired.

    I have found 2 solutions for the landing that have been pretty successful:

    1: Release early. Resist the urge to pancake him with that oh so beautiful ippon finish, and when He is 3/4 over...release the outside arm and fall stright onto him. Do this right and you end up with sid control, staring at an ude garame.

    The risk HERE is not getting the throw at all. It's tricky. But the opportunity is there so often it's worth training.

    2: Drive forward, not sideways. With a fast, dynamic situation...sometimes your uchimata can end up being off-angle and that creates a lot of back-taking for uke. Make sure your weight is coming forward and shuck him in front of you, and he should land perpendicular to you, making it harder to take your back.

    I like to make sure that I am almost parallel to the ground and really pulling for all I'm worth.

    AT ALL TIMES YOU MUST OWN HIS NEAR-SIDE ARM. The reason for this should be obvious.
    And lo, Kano looked down upon the field and saw the multitudes. Amongst them were the disciples of Uesheba who were greatly vexed at his sayings. And Kano spake: "Do not be concerned with the mote in thy neighbor's eye, when verily thou hast a massive stick in thine ass".

    --Scrolls of Bujutsu: Chapter 5 vs 10-14.
  9. Judobum is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/28/2007 10:47am


     Style: Judo

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    This is a lot of my experience doing free-style with wrestlers as well. I used to sometimes work out with the university wrestling team and they had no clue how to defend uchi-mata. It doesn't have a great wrestling application because you usually end up exposing your back but it's great if you modify it as Scrapper says above or by trying to drive your opponent onto his head and shoulder (MMA only obviously).

    I think the whole movement is difficult to defend unless you're familiar with it. It's kind of a combination of a hip throw with a little leg picking action thrown in. You can't sprawl out and you can't do an ura-nage/suplex reversal against it either. That's what makes it so effective againt non-judokas.
  10. roly is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/28/2007 9:25pm


     Style: judo, karate, jap jj

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    people are mentioning an overhook, i cannot work out why you would go for an overhook and attempt this? surely an underhook is better as the underhook
    - makes it easier to stop him taking your back
    - gives you a better lever to throw him with


    as always i need a picture cos i'm **** with words, good luck understanding me
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