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  1. MONGO is offline

    Middleweight

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    Posted On:
    1/26/2007 8:12pm

    supporting member
     Style: na

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Uchimata

    I guess because people are interested in Judo throws and how the transition can hurt or help you as you enter newaza.

    My disclaimer- I have not competed at a level as high as Judobum, possibly Dakotakan Judo and some others that post on this board. I have never competed internationally and it is most likely not in my future. I have competed against some good Judoka in Japan and I promptly lost.

    In addition, if my information contradicts experts in BJJ and Judo like Dave Camarillo and Rhadi Ferguson, it is because I am wrong.


    Uchimata is less effective for MMA than its Wrestling equivalent. Uchimata is generally most effective if your opponent is a moron or is playing Judo. I have a decent Uchimata from Judo (tokuiwaza) but I have only pulled it off against another person in BJJ class once. He was playing straight back Judo style tachiwaza and paid the price for it.

    Most wrestlers make it very difficult because of their low, wide base. Hane Goshi and Uchimata variants can be performed from a driving entry but it can be difficult to force a decent wrestler into a standing position to perform this technique.

    Also, modifying Judo to perform like wrestling is a good idea only if your Judo is very good like Karo's or Rhadi's. If your standing skills suck, wrestling is easier to learn and needs little modification for gi fighting. It needs no modification for MMA/NHB and some people say its easier to learn.

    Now, Judo Ashiwaza (particularly the sweeps and inside/outside reaps) work very well because they can be good driving style techniques that don't require a sharp pull on clothing.

    *by driving tech, I mean that the thrower is driving his weight into his opponent to perform the Kuzushi.

    There is also a tendency to overturn or Makikomi the throw. This can result in both people being on the ground and the throwee to have a single hook in on an easily accomplished backmount. The backmount becomes very common with guys that know that you are going for an Uchimata and a they have a basic knowledge of transitions.
    Last edited by MONGO; 1/26/2007 8:19pm at .
  2. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

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    Posted On:
    1/26/2007 8:28pm

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     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Couple of questions for ya.

    What do you mean by "straight back"? (I'm assuming you mean stood upright as opposed to the bent over posture usually adopted by BJJers).

    What is the wrestling equivalent of uchi-mata?
  3. Ryno is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/26/2007 8:43pm


     Style: FMA, Jujutsu/Judo/SAMBO

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Yeah, I think upright is what he means. Literally that your back is straight, and that you don't lean forward as western style wrestlers would. It's a lot more difficult to get in and tight to execute an Uchimata against someone leaning forward than against someone standing straight up. If they are leaning forward, they will likely just drop their weight and drive in, most likely taking your back.
  4. Lu Tze is offline

    BJJ might make you a better ground fighter, but Judo will make you a better dancer.

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    Posted On:
    1/26/2007 9:26pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Judo

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I can't uchi mata someone who's standing up straight. Funnily enough, I can flip em like a pancake if they're leaning forward.

    Something must be getting lost in translation here.
  5. Goju - Joe is offline
    Goju - Joe's Avatar

    I am a Ninja bitches!! Deal with it

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    Posted On:
    1/26/2007 9:45pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Improv comedy

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lu Tze

    What is the wrestling equivalent of uchi-mata?

    I could be wrong but on a recent UFC unleashed they shout VanArsdale Vs Babalu and Vanarsdale was taking Babalu down with what I thought was an Uchi Mata but they called it a whizzer as Vanarsdale was over hooking Babalu's arm arm and then tripping the leg as he threw himsel forward.
  6. War Wizard is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/26/2007 11:55pm


     Style: Judo - Boxing

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Lu Tze
    Something must be getting lost in translation here.
    Kuzushi is the answer here. When they're upright you haven't broken their balance and uke is therefore much more difficult to throw. Once you've broken their balance (i.e. they're leaning forward) it is considerably easier. For myself, I can't just go right into Uchimata, I have to set it up with another throw (usually Ouchi Gari).
    "Keep a sharp knife, shiny boots and be on time."
  7. WorldWarCheese is offline
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    Posted On:
    1/27/2007 1:16am


     Style: Muay Thai n00b

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitman
    Kuzushi is the answer here. When they're upright you haven't broken their balance and uke is therefore much more difficult to throw. Once you've broken their balance (i.e. they're leaning forward) it is considerably easier. For myself, I can't just go right into Uchimata, I have to set it up with another throw (usually Ouchi Gari).
    Same. I can never get it against a straight backed guy but have gotten it against the few BJJers that have come to train in Judo at my old dojo, granted it was always a sloppy one but it was never my favorite throw either.

    What I DO like using is going in for uchimata and having the other person tense up and try to stop me then I switch real quick like into ko-uchi gari pushing to their side. It's one of the best throws to set up other leg sweeps with IMO.
  8. MEGALEF is offline

    Still digging on James Brown

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    Posted On:
    1/27/2007 2:48am


     Style: BJJ & Judo (1k)

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I remember Scrapper (whom you forgot to mention in your disclamer MONGO. For shame.) saying uchi mata is one of the best throws against bent over BJJers.
  9. MONGO is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/27/2007 10:12am

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     Style: na

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Scrapper too. (Damn it)

    A bent over player can fall victim to a spinning uchimata but that is if they are already broken down to the front and close to the end of their toes (balance wise). It is great for a side enter uchimata but it is prone to over turning because it often requires a dynamic entry. When the throw is complete, the thrower is usually face up with the victim underneath him.

    One of the more dangerous factors is the eventual back mount from someone that has a clue as to what Judo transitions are like.

    In wrestling, I believe the throw is a lifting hip throw (I'm unsure of terms because of the language barrier of learning the technique in Japan). It requires a single deep whizzer or underhook and SS penetrating step to straighten the back and then left the opponent. The far side arm is usually in an armdrag grip above the elbow.



    And........Throwing a pure BJJer is like choking out a CMAer, its easy (for the most part).
  10. JohnnyFive is offline

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    Posted On:
    1/27/2007 10:43am


     Style: Judo/BJJ

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    One of my instructors (harai-goshi specialist) likes harai vs. BJJ/wrestlers. He tried to teach me to do it, but you need one of those really really deep harais which takes advantage of the fact that they're already bent over, and I can't. It works for him, though.
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