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  1. #1

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    seeking contact with students of the late Sifu Keith Cullors

    Good day, John Miller here with yet another attempt to trace down old friends. I realize this forum is for digging up dirt on schools and instructors, but with the number of members from OK I see in here, I hope to find a little intelegent info. My question is as such.

    Has anyone here trained under or know anyone who trained under sifu Keith Cullors (yes, that is the spelling as best as I recall) from sapulpa ok? The last place I saw Sifu cullors or my fellow students was at the booker t washington building in sapulpa OK. The last info I have been able to find is that Sifu had closed the school to spend more time on Church and Preaching and eventually passed from this world some 9 years ago. The fellow students I am looking to make contact with would be mostly mid to late 30's , I trained under Sifu Cullors starting in the winter of 83-84 and lost contact after a few years as work took me further from home.
    For the record, my name is John Miller in Cushing OK. I will be glad to provide phone number or take your number and call if anyone has information. For any information I can obtain on my old Sifu and fellow students, Thank you and God bless.

  2. #2
    I decided I'd have a pretty avatar for a while.

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Well done for clearing out of Dai Tenshi's investigation!

    I myself am not from the states, so I cannot help you in your search for your Sifu, however there are many members who have trained in the area. If they don't stumble across this thread or are otherwise informed I will personally PM them to direct them to your request.

    What would probably alleviate a great many suspiscions is if you were to explain your reasoning for visiting Coda Scott's school. Where you looking for old classmates who might still be training in a martial art? Were you looking for a new place to train? Were you just visiting to gather information on tracking down your Sifu?

    I remind you that you are now in Newbietown, and as such you and this thread are immune to trolling/flaming/abuse for as long as you post exclusively in this thread.

    It would appreciated therefore if you continued your posting here rather than in Dai Tenshi's investigation.

    Thanks.

  3. #3

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    Good morning Iscariot. I will be glad to answer your question(s) and would like answers to mine, and not only about my fellow students. To answer your question first, I was invited by a friend to observe Mr Scotts classroom as I was looking for a varity of Martial Artists to work out with and possible floor space to A. revive an old body in need of a crash cource in conditioning 101 and B. further develop my art. Before anyone jumps on anything, I am not a "Master" and have never claimed to be. In my oppinion my years, though I feel very old at times, 39 years of age is not sufficient time to develop a true mastry. But, Yes, I have begun to graft all that I have learned from others as I traveled on work since I left my Sifu in an attempt to get back to a softer style without forsaking my first love (Hung Gar). Where Mr Scot fits into the picture is another frame in a very large picture. I form oppinions based on my experience(s) without bias from what others say untill such a time as it is proven to me that what I see here is true. (not to call anyone a liar, only asking proof of accusations). In reference to my age comment above, no, I do not think that one younger than myself has developed a true mastry either, but that is not to insult anyone, only a realistic outlook that it takes a life time to truly master any art. To answer the pending questions concerning Mr Scot on the subject, it is begining to look to me that he did indeed receive a BB and is of the firm oppinion that it is exactly what he was told it is. Whether or not that is true I will leave to the hunters on this forum, while I will aswer your questions within reason I still will not join an issue parse' I spoke with Mr Scot last night before my last post and let him know I intended to ask to see the video of the meeting in question. He was not offended nor was he detured in his resolve. He did however, seem to be taken aback just a little on the subject of Mr Tanner. I do not intend to change anyone's oppinion, you have all worked very hard to come to it and I respect that. Do not expect me to jump on a witch hunt just because someone in here said so, respect my oppinion as well for it is an honest oppinion based on personal experience. I know my oppinion is not popular in here but no matter. To clairify my oppinion for those who will ask, my oppinion is such:
    1. We have no laws to govern the teaching of Martial Arts Anyone can teach their concepts and call it martial. Do I think this is a good thing? In most cases, NO. But, we alwayse have #2.
    2. In a community the size of Stillwater news travels fast. If a teacher is teaching bad ideas on any subject, be it Martial Arts or math, word will get out from students who know the subject and they will not last long so the problem will usally take care of its self in very short order.
    3. Unless I know he is hurting someone, it is not my business to question credentials. Either a teacher is for me or he is not, each person to their own oppinion. True, as a Martial Artist (of any physical condition) it is our Honer bound duty to expose the truth as we see it which sometimes contradicts my preference of not joining issues but it is a must be.
    4. A belt or Certificate is not what gives one the authority to teach an art (at least Traditional Kung Fu styles, I dont claim to know about other styles). The authority to teach comes from your Sifu. A belt or Certificate cannot make one a teacher any more than sleeping in a barn makes them a jack ass. Either they are a jackass or a teacher or something between, no papper or belt can make it otherwise. Last week I saw an ebay auction for a video course in American Kempo indicating that the winning bidder may contact their grand master(though he was not a grand master of any Kempo / Kenpo) for a black belt certificate with the course. Upon further Due Diligence I found that others had purchased the course and obtained their black belt on that they called an "Honer System", post dated for the date they should complete the course. Does that make them a good instructor?? NO, it does not, but they have a certificate signed by a real blackk belt in the art. Does this mean that anything has to change about your oppinions of Mr Scot?? NO, it does not but I hope I am making a point that I really do not care about belts or certificates, we did not even HAVE a ranking system when I studied with Sifu Culors. One was a Student, or a Teacher, hence my screen name, Hunggar_Student. I will continue to be a student until I have accomplished my goal of the (in my oppinion) perfect art rooted in Hung Gar, prehaps a lifetime.
    5. I did indeed observe a good attatude from Mr Scott and his students. I may have had an experience different from others, I was not there for your meeting and will no more judge your crew on the matter than I will judge anyone else, it is not my way.
    Ok, I think I have answered your question as well as the next few that will come from you or others as a result of this post, now for my question, it is very simple.
    Why is it so hard to get an answer to something so simple as Where can I ask for info?? Answers like Go to nubetown are intended as an insult, we all know that so why should I take it for an answer. The general bs section is closed and it will do no good to post in non martial arts sections for answers to my search. A legit answer could even be such as: "The general bs section is closed, try posting in nubetown since the question doesnt fit anywhere" That would at least be honest and within the martial spirit.
    Ok, I supose I may have lied, I do have another question.
    Why is everyone here so bent on witch hunts? I am not talking about the Scot investigation, I am talking everywhere. I actually posted in support of one, using life experiences to back up an idea(in this case, no superior Martial Arts, only superior Martial Artists) and it is jumped on Like I had just challenged Grand Master kong or something. I would never mind a flamin if I had actually insulted someone or claimed to be some super master or other such ignorance, but I have not. If I did not see so many members from OK in here I certianly would not wast my time filtering through the witch hunt mentality to uncover valad information so your offer to direct artists from this erea to my thread is well accepted and I thank you now for this as well as for the answers to my questions above.
    Again, Thank you and God bless,,,,,

    EDITED TO ADD: Just noticed your opening statement, (had a late night of work, answered on my first cup of coffee) It was not my intention to intrupt anyones investigation, but, if it was an investigation I did assume that outside input may be welcome, for that I am sorry. However, they should not be such @$$ holes,,, :)

    Quote Originally Posted by Iscariot
    Well done for clearing out of Dai Tenshi's investigation!

    I myself am not from the states, so I cannot help you in your search for your Sifu, however there are many members who have trained in the area. If they don't stumble across this thread or are otherwise informed I will personally PM them to direct them to your request.

    What would probably alleviate a great many suspiscions is if you were to explain your reasoning for visiting Coda Scott's school. Where you looking for old classmates who might still be training in a martial art? Were you looking for a new place to train? Were you just visiting to gather information on tracking down your Sifu?

    I remind you that you are now in Newbietown, and as such you and this thread are immune to trolling/flaming/abuse for as long as you post exclusively in this thread.

    It would appreciated therefore if you continued your posting here rather than in Dai Tenshi's investigation.

    Thanks.
    Last edited by hunggar_student; 9/17/2006 11:52am at .

  4. #4
    I decided I'd have a pretty avatar for a while.

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    Thanks for the lenghty response. If you could gap paragraph in future it'll help a great deal. The human eye reads easier when there are breaks in the text. It's especially helpful on the internet with the nature of monitors and coloured text etc. An example would be like the following break:

    Firstly 'Go to Newbie Town' was not meant in an entirely derogatory fashion, it was meant to keep an unneccessary query and potential flame war out of an investigation. By all mean share your experiences of Mr. Scott there, but everything else is simply superfluous.

    Secondly, although you don't feel it your responsibility to seek out those teaching substandard techniques or committing fraud, there are a great deal of people here at Bullshido who do. However here on Bullshido it is not encouraged to randomly pick on people for no reason, there must be clear and obvious evidence of something wrong. Coda Scott has done things that are obviously wrong, Dai Tenshi and the others have clearly supplied that information. Regardless of how nice Mr. Scott was to you in person, it does not make that evidence go away.

    Thirdly, relying on the general public to do what is best for them is never effective. Look at how dangerous smoking is, but still people continue to take up smoking for whatever reason. Because it is so dangerous the government (now finally, after many years of lobbying) puts warning labels on the packets. Bullshido does the same thing to martial arts schools. The information is displayed here and from that people can make up there own minds, as you are welcomee to do on the Coda Scott Investigation. Bullshido is the Surgeon General's Warning for the Martial Arts.

    Fourthly, what was it that made you go to Coda Scott's school specifically? Was it the arts practiced? The level of contact? The religious atmosphere? What other arts would you consider taking? We could easily make enquiries and find you other schools that may be more suitable that you could at least try. Perhaps it would be easier to understand Dai Tenshi and other's concerns if you went and trained with them and discussed it directly with them like you've done with Coda Scott. It would at least be fair to hear both sides of the argument. It would also silence those people who accuse you of being connected with Coda Scott in some way instantly.

    Hopefully this helps you understand things clearer.

    I notice that no-one has posted about your Sifu or his other students. If after a few days no-one replies I will begin to send those PMs I said I would.

  5. #5

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    Thank you again for your reply. To answer your question, the reason I went to Mr Scot's school in the first place is a bit of a long story but I will try to condense it a bit.

    A mutual friend with whom I study Kenpo at the moment has known Mr Scot for quite some time. I was looking for a varity of artists to train with as I intend to share what I have learned once my physical condition is back to where it should be.

    Mr Scot had apperently offered floor space to train and advance my art which was forwarded on to me by our friend. (how the subject came up with them I have neve asked) The prospect of having a place to work on my old art without drawing questons from the new classmates I now study with seemed to be a good deal.

    I went to meet with Mr Scot for mutual assesment of the compatibiltiy of such a prospect. The sparing matches I mentioned was a part of that assesment by both sides.

    Again, I can say nothing as to the level of technique as Hung Gar is very different from american karate, and I know nothing about american karate or their techniques beyond basic strikes and blocks, even those are different in many cases.

    So, long story short, my meeting with Mr Scot was nothing more than a mutual assesment of a proposal to see if:
    1. He had anything I have need of and
    2. I have anything to contribute to his enviroment.
    I will hold the results of that assesment until I have met with your friends and hopefully viewed any proof they have of some of the accusations they have made.

    This is not to put myself in the place of Judge but only for my own knowledge to make an informed decission.

    In closing, YES, I would meet with your friends in stillwater, especially if they happen to be Traditional Martial Artists, (desired but not required for meeting) while I am very happy with my current Sifu, like I said, cross training is a GOOD thing and it is needed to develope my body and art to what I want it to be.

    Thank you and God bless,,
    John Miller.

  6. #6

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Sorry, I forgot one thing in my last post, though I really do not like the investigation part in this thread, thats ok.

    What I forgot is this.
    The meeting I agreed to will have to be with the firm understanding that my words are not used on this forum without my concent. I say that because I did take the time to talk with one of the individuals quoted on this site who seemed mildly supprised that his words were being used here.

    He did not affirm or deny the words used and I did not ask him to, but from that single experience I will assert up front that MY words should I choose to post them will be done by ME and by no other, that should help keep things on a civle note, anyone not agreeing with any post I make is alwayse free to dispute the post publicly, as many have shown already some without consideration of the post in question.
    Again, Thank you and God bless.

  7. #7
    I decided I'd have a pretty avatar for a while.

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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thanks again for your replies, and well done for using clear paragraph breaks, it makes it MUCH easier to read.

    The story does help explain why you went to Coda's school, free and unhindered mat time is a very attractive proposal and I can't think of anyone who did have access would refuse such an offer.

    I obviously cannot speak for them, but I'm sure some of the members would be happy to help you find clubs and speak to you. I believe that there is both a mix of traditional and modern styles in the area. The person to person contact may also help with your search for your classmates and Sifu.

    There have been many times in Bullshido history when there have been meetings where the contents have been agreed to be confidential. However this is not a blanket policy and would have to be agreed between yourself and whoever you were meeting.

    I believe it helps in the states to know someone's area zipcode for recommending things like clubs as it's much more specific. It might help if you posted that information, or made it available to whoever might be able to help you. As you are yet many posts of being able to use Bullshido's Private Messaging system may I suggest you set up a new email account that can be posted here, this will effectively give you a 'throwaway' email address that will keep your main email address secure. Yahoo and Hotmail offer free email accounts like this.

  8. #8

    Join Date
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    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Thank you once again. Now that that much is understood, I would hope that the very nature of my meeting with Mr Scot would explain why I do not have a negitive oppinion on the matter, though I can understand your crews outlook as well. All I have asked on this matter is as I have respected other views, dont flame me over mine, which very few have adheared to but no matter.

    In my oppinion, everyone is granted my respect untill such a time as they show it is not deserved but that is another subject.
    I have no problem posting one of my current email address's here; I assume it is allowed since you suggested posting an addy??
    The address is [email protected] (yes, I am aware of the spelling, it was a yahoo issue)

    My zip is 74023, though any in this erea will know where Cushing is without the zip.

    The town my old Sifu was in is sapulpa, I cannot remember the zip there but I believe only members from that erea will have information on my fellow students there anyhow.

    If any need more personal communication, just use the email in this post to send a phone number and I will call you to exchange my number as well. As for the other arts, most any traditional chinise style (not wushu, that one is a bit new and flashy for my tasts.) Stick to tradition while subscribing to the "Use what Works" idea of modern(and traditional) MA.

    I am in the process of setting up a site for the sole purpose of bringing together traditional Martial Artists of all flavors now(started a few weeks ago to be closer, just not finished) to help this along, who knows, I may try to gather artists from the various arts to police the Traditional world after reading your reasoning on the matter but That should be another story.

    Thank you and God bless,,
    John Miller.

  9. #9
    Northeast Anti-Silliness Department Inc. supporting member
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    four out of 7 replies to this thread started with the words "thank you".....

    .....

    GOD DAMN HIPPIES!!! TAKE YOUR LOVEFEST SOMEWHERE ELSE!
    Knowing is not enough, you must apply...
    ...Willing is not enough you must do
    ~Bruce Lee

  10. #10
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    Thank You KempoFist for pointing this out . . .

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