Stephen Oliver's Million Dollar McDojo

**Sam Browning** · Posted On: 1/31/2007 8:49pm

If I may repeat what I think Mr. Oliver's argument is, those rates are charged by people who are hobbyists who do not teach full time. A full time instructor is able to provide greater and better services and therefore is justified in charging say $200 a month for classes.

My reply is that this is true if the instructor's skills can be judged by objective criteria. Renzo Gracie for example in New York City is a nationally known full contact competitor. One does not just have to depend on his representation that he is good, one can look at both his fight record and his success in turning out great students who are also measured by competition.

But how many of the karate/TKD instructors who will be charging $200 a month can do the same? Oh, they can produce point fighting and forms championship tropies, and run their own tournments, but how do we really know they are as qualified as they say they are, and therefore worthy of demanding from us, Joe Consumer, $200 plus a month which works out to $2,400 a year not counting add ons.

**Slipster** · Posted On: 1/31/2007 9:00pm

$197 a month? Fuckin' disgusting...:mad:

Save your money. Find a Gracie school and get your money's worth.

Better yet, find one of those guys who didn't make the finals in The Ultimate Fighter series. I bet they would be glad to teach you, and for probably half the price of some krotty.

Here's some names:
Chris Lytle, Patrick Cote, Travis Lutter, Michael Bisping, Eric Schafer, Rich Clementi, Din Thomas, Jeremy Jackson, Pete Spratt, Edwin Dewees, Jorge Rivera, Scott Smith, Pete Sell, Gideon Ray, Charles McCarthy just to name a few.

If they can't teach you, I bet they know someone who can.

**StephenOliver** · Posted On: 1/31/2007 9:59pm

Obviously the presumption among many participating in this forum is that "Good School" = Great Streetfighter & "Bullshido" = Anything else. That's a ridiculous way to view Martial Arts Instruction.

Certainly ANYONE who trains for a reasonable period of time should have quality self defense skills. Unfortunately, It's also true that most great streetfighters, UFC fighters, and others with those athletic skills are not effective teachers. Will 45 year old women & 7 year old girls end up in the running for the UFC - obviously not.

That doesn't make a high quality school into "bullshido" Just because someone is a nationally known current or former full contact competitor does not give you information about anything other than their own athletic skills. Certainly that's true also of our chief instructor Jeff Smith (retired internationally known contact competitor) although he also happens to also be an excellent teacher & teacher of teachers.

Stephen Oliver
http://www.MileHighKarate.com
StephenOliver@MileHighKarate.com

**Sam Browning** · Posted On: 1/31/2007 10:04pm

But how does someone who walks into a dojo, knowing little about the martial arts, know that they are in the presence of a master instructor rather than a master sales person?

**Sam Browning** · Posted On: 1/31/2007 10:13pm

For example, I know nothing about the martial arts. I walk into Martial Arts Studio X. There are all kinds of certificates on the wall. Including one from a pay to play hall of fame which I do not know at the time. There are trophies all over the place. The guy is conversational and is good at selling. And I can't see at the time that he is teaching slap boxing to his students. (Think really bad kempo)

So without outside reference points, how do I eyeball this guy as a newbie and know he's a master instructor or great teacher. Please break it down for me.

***Omega Supreme*** · Posted On: 1/31/2007 10:19pm

Originally Posted by StephenOliver

Obviously the presumption among many participating in this forum is that "Good School" = Great Streetfighter & "Bullshido" = Anything else. That's a ridiculous way to view Martial Arts Instruction.

Certainly ANYONE who trains for a reasonable period of time should have quality self defense skills. Unfortunately, It's also true that most great streetfighters, UFC fighters, and others with those athletic skills are not effective teachers. Will 45 year old women & 7 year old girls end up in the running for the UFC - obviously not.

That doesn't make a high quality school into "bullshido" Just because someone is a nationally known current or former full contact competitor does not give you information about anything other than their own athletic skills. Certainly that's true also of our chief instructor Jeff Smith (retired internationally known contact competitor) although he also happens to also be an excellent teacher & teacher of teachers.

Stephen Oliver
http://www.MileHighKarate.com
StephenOliver@MileHighKarate.com

You now just lost any respect I had about you being on this thread. You haven't read anything we've put down or you would not have come to the conclusion:

Obviously the presumption among many participating in this forum is that "Good School" = Great Streetfighter & "Bullshido" = Anything else.

**Slipster** · Posted On: 1/31/2007 10:38pm

Originally Posted by StephenOliver

Obviously the presumption among many participating in this forum is that "Good School" = Great Streetfighter & "Bullshido" = Anything else.

IMO, you couldn't be more wrong.

Certainly ANYONE who trains for a reasonable period of time should have quality self defense skills.

Not unless they test their skills (i.e. competetion in or out of the dojo, the use of aliveness in their training, use of resisting partner). Training in katas all day, while fun, doesn't mean you can defend yourself. Furthermore, a reasonable amount of time (say 6 months) of karate training won't help you against someone with 6 months of jiu-jitsu training. We have seen it over and over again.

Unfortunately, It's also true that most great streetfighters, UFC fighters, and others with those athletic skills are not effective teachers.

They may not be good teachers. But at least we have seen their skills put to the test, against a live (resisting) opponent.

Just because someone is a nationally known current or former full contact competitor does not give you information about anything other than their own athletic skills.

I would rather learn from a guy who lost 100 competition matchs than from someone who doesn't compete at all. While he may not win tournaments, he proved that he has heart. Unlike the armchair instructor who only brags but is too scared to put it on the line.

****, I'm rambling now...

**StephenOliver** · Posted On: 2/01/2007 1:00am

For example, I know nothing about the martial arts. I walk into Martial Arts Studio X. There are all kinds of certificates on the wall. Including one from a pay to play hall of fame which I do not know at the time. There are trophies all over the place. The guy is conversational and is good at selling. And I can't see at the time that he is teaching slap boxing to his students. (Think really bad kempo)

For an novice certainly it’s somewhat difficult.

Clearly there are many instructors and organizations that as an experienced instructor I would be aware (as would many others) recognize either as usually very good or very bad.

The only way that I would recommend to decide without that knowledge is to meet and look at their Black Belts and other senior students – and, if kids talk with their parents. Decide if their physical and philosophical orientation is congruent with what you are trying to accomplish. Do the senior students look to have high levels of competency with what you hope to accomplish. Additionally, look at the instructors and see if they at least give the appearance of someone you hope to model. If you want to be fit and tough don’t train from someone grossly out of shape. If you want your kids to be success oriented don’t train with someone who does not exemplify those traits.

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So without outside reference points, how do I eyeball this guy as a newbie and know he's a master instructor or great teacher. Please break it down for me.

Quote:
Certainly ANYONE who trains for a reasonable period of time should have quality self defense skills.
Not unless they test their skills (i.e. competetion in or out of the dojo, the use of aliveness in their training, use of resisting partner). Training in katas all day, while fun, doesn't mean you can defend yourself. Furthermore, a reasonable amount of time (say 6 months) of karate training won't help you against someone with 6 months of jiu-jitsu training. We have seen it over and over again.

? Yes. I certainly agree. Again, you go back to who can FIGHT best in 6 months – Jiu-Jitsu vs. Karate after 6 months. See previous comment that you “disagree with” and believe means that I haven’t read the posts. The orientation is deeply ingrained.

Certainly traditional forms do not teach effective fighting/self defense. They may be a good exercise but not practical for defense.

Quote:
Unfortunately, It's also true that most great streetfighters, UFC fighters, and others with those athletic skills are not effective teachers.
They may not be good teachers. But at least we have seen their skills put to the test, against a live (resisting) opponent.

Yes. Unless they can somehow teach that tenacity and strength of character then it is relatively without value as an instructor.
--------------------------------
Quote:
Just because someone is a nationally known current or former full contact competitor does not give you information about anything other than their own athletic skills.
I would rather learn from a guy who lost 100 competition matchs than from someone who doesn't compete at all. While he may not win tournaments, he proved that he has heart. Unlike the armchair instructor who only brags but is too scared to put it on the line.

I’m not sure I want a 40, 50, or 60 year old instructor to still be “putting it on the line” regularly. Frankly many of the most competent and experienced instructors are beyond their physical prime and it doesn’t make them less valuable as an instructor.

Competitors as instructors often is counter-productive. I’d rather have someone who’s mission is to make their students the best RATHER than an egocentric competitor focused on their own results. Are their outstanding competitors who are also outstanding instructors – sure. Is it typical? No. We typically don’t expect star athletes to become star coaches or teachers – although it does happen from time to time. I’m not sure why martial arts should be expected to be any different.

Stephen Oliver
Mile High Karate
www.MileHighKarate.com

**StephenOliver** · Posted On: 2/01/2007 1:17am

Originally Posted by Omega the Merciless

Let me back you up on this one Courage.

**** Oliver **** him up his mile high ass. He's everything that's wrong with commercial schools these days. Essentially he's listen to me and I'll make you money. If he was teaching academics he'd be like give me $300 so I can tell you that even if you fail the test you're a good person. Now go get me some more people.

El-Wood I think you should be raped by Godzilla. Good for him getting $300? Where the **** do you get off? Do you not understand what site you are on? If he was a top level instructor hell yeah $300 wouldn't be much but he's only there to leach your money.

-----------------------------------
Great commentary.
Does anyone monitor you?
Yes, I did read the posts.
And, I'll stand by all previous comments.
Pretty ignorant - Omega the Merciless (by the way great logo, love the finger.

Stephen Oliver.
Mile High Karate.

**StephenOliver** · Posted On: 2/01/2007 1:18am

Originally Posted by Omega the Merciless

You now just lost any respect I had about you being on this thread. You haven't read anything we've put down or you would not have come to the conclusion:

Your respect I can live without.

Stephen Oliver.