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  1. chingythingy is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/07/2008 10:19am


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler66
    I would agree if it were a short-term deal - but he's been doing this for quite a while and with a very high degree of success - he pretty much has Denver locked up as far as martial arts schools. You say "to the expense of the customer", but none of what he's selling is a secret - you can come in and watch a class every day if you want. I didn't say I would ever go to his school - but I don't see anything wrong with putting a product out there that obviously has some kind of appeal. The bottom line is - there are no morals in business. As a traditionalist, you should put out a quality product, but if you don't like it, go somewhere else.

    Again - I'm not defending the schools as great martial arts schools, I'm just saying the man knows what he's doing as far as business goes. I think it's a crying shame that you can't make a successful career out of a traditional dojo with old fashioned rules, but you can't.
    You know, I suppose you could say McDonalds has the restaurant industry "locked up" in Denver too, but I'd never eat there. And yes, the analogy translates. There are many, many options outside of McOliver in Denver even for kids training.

    Yes it is absolutely at the expense of the customer. One thing that is so transparantly obvious and wrong about his business model is his continual emphasis on marketing "to get more people coming through the door". Why is this so necessary? DUHHHHHH.
    Because they are passing so many people on their way out the door.

    I have a friend that used to run a scam type martial arts school with that same marketing training, black belt clubs, contracts, etc. He said he eventually couldn't live with himself because he knew he was ripping people off. He closed that school and opened a MMA school in his warehouse that supports real fighters and a kids MMA program that is realistic - has a judo instructor, BJJ, and starting in with muy thai striking. He says as opposed to his old school, he loves being around the new one because of the positive energy that surrounds it.

    But, he doesn't have a fake tan and a $100,000 sports car.
  2. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/07/2008 12:53pm

    staff
     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Kepler66
    I would agree if it were a short-term deal - but he's been doing this for quite a while and with a very high degree of success - he pretty much has Denver locked up as far as martial arts schools. You say "to the expense of the customer", but none of what he's selling is a secret - you can come in and watch a class every day if you want. I didn't say I would ever go to his school - but I don't see anything wrong with putting a product out there that obviously has some kind of appeal. The bottom line is - there are no morals in business. As a traditionalist, you should put out a quality product, but if you don't like it, go somewhere else.

    Again - I'm not defending the schools as great martial arts schools, I'm just saying the man knows what he's doing as far as business goes. I think it's a crying shame that you can't make a successful career out of a traditional dojo with old fashioned rules, but you can't.

    Oh - and to "Teh El Macho", I like sandwiches too - what's your point again?
    LOL, that's why I mentioned "you didn't read this thread". I mentioned most of this awhile back. I wouldn't say you can't make a living out of a traditional dojo, but there need to be some compromises and some steps toward modern evolution if you are to survive.

    I don't consider Oliver a martial artist anymore as much as a business man with an insight to the inner workings of martial arts. He even made an article in Professional Martial Art Magazine (or another), about his endeavors here and did an interesting spin on the whole situation.

    Oliver knows how to market himself. He understands the business model that is the martial art school, he makes money. That's about it.
  3. KempoWithAnM is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/07/2008 1:47pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I eat at McDonalds every once in a while. I know it's not nutritious or healthy, I know there's better tasting food out there, but sometimes I just want a Big Mac. Especially after I see a commercial for one. So I go there and give them my money and they give me exactly what I want. Its a fair trade and a win-win. Yes, I could go to the market instead and buy a bunch of carrots that will be a lot cheaper and a lot healthier, but when I have a "Big Mac attack" carrots just won't do. That's why McDonalds are successful - because they give people what people want. Same with Mr. Oliver. He is successful because he gives people what they want, and more often than not what they want isn't ring-ready-fighting-skills. Hard core MMA training isnt suitable for everyone. Traditional Karate training isnt suitable for everyone. Hell, some people really want to be Ninjas. Just because someone is selling something that isnt right for you doesnt mean its wrong for everyone else too.
  4. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/07/2008 2:01pm

    staff
     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KempoWithAnM
    I eat at McDonalds every once in a while. I know it's not nutritious or healthy, I know there's better tasting food out there, but sometimes I just want a Big Mac. Especially after I see a commercial for one. So I go there and give them my money and they give me exactly what I want. Its a fair trade and a win-win. Yes, I could go to the market instead and buy a bunch of carrots that will be a lot cheaper and a lot healthier, but when I have a "Big Mac attack" carrots just won't do. That's why McDonalds are successful - because they give people what people want. Same with Mr. Oliver. He is successful because he gives people what they want, and more often than not what they want isn't ring-ready-fighting-skills. Hard core MMA training isnt suitable for everyone. Traditional Karate training isnt suitable for everyone. Hell, some people really want to be Ninjas. Just because someone is selling something that isnt right for you doesnt mean its wrong for everyone else too.
    Let me guess. You didn't read the fucking thread either. I mean what the ****. You don't think we've already used the fucking Mcdonald's analogy on this thread?

    Where the **** do we get these arrogant newbs?
  5. Art is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/07/2008 2:03pm


     Style: TKD, wrestling, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KempoWithAnM
    I eat at McDonalds every once in a while. I know it's not nutritious or healthy, I know there's better tasting food out there, but sometimes I just want a Big Mac. Especially after I see a commercial for one. So I go there and give them my money and they give me exactly what I want. Its a fair trade and a win-win. Yes, I could go to the market instead and buy a bunch of carrots that will be a lot cheaper and a lot healthier, but when I have a "Big Mac attack" carrots just won't do. That's why McDonalds are successful - because they give people what people want. Same with Mr. Oliver. He is successful because he gives people what they want, and more often than not what they want isn't ring-ready-fighting-skills. Hard core MMA training isnt suitable for everyone. Traditional Karate training isnt suitable for everyone. Hell, some people really want to be Ninjas. Just because someone is selling something that isnt right for you doesnt mean its wrong for everyone else too.
    Emphasis added

    They are telling you want and then providing it. That's marketing. The general public isn't informed enough about martial arts to be able to make a decision based on previous knowledge so it is up to marketing machines to tell them what they want. This can be done in so many different ways IE) Scare tactics to make you paranoid and seek training to keep yourself and your family safe, telling you that you will improve yourself by attending training.

    When it comes down to it the marketing machine tells you what you want. It is really up to an informed consumer to self evaluate and decide if that is really the path to go. In MA business it is all about making it accessable to everyone. That is what NAPMA, Mr. Oliver, MAIA do and on the surface it seems great but deep at the core I don't know how much professional development they do in terms of martial arts . . . but the marketing seems solid.
  6. Art is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/07/2008 2:07pm


     Style: TKD, wrestling, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega
    Where the **** do we get these arrogant newbs?
    Walmart?
  7. chingythingy is offline

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    Posted On:
    3/07/2008 10:21pm


     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by KempoWithAnM
    I eat at McDonalds every once in a while. I know it's not nutritious or healthy, I know there's better tasting food out there, but sometimes I just want a Big Mac. Especially after I see a commercial for one. So I go there and give them my money and they give me exactly what I want. Its a fair trade and a win-win. Yes, I could go to the market instead and buy a bunch of carrots that will be a lot cheaper and a lot healthier, but when I have a "Big Mac attack" carrots just won't do. That's why McDonalds are successful - because they give people what people want. Same with Mr. Oliver. He is successful because he gives people what they want, and more often than not what they want isn't ring-ready-fighting-skills. Hard core MMA training isnt suitable for everyone. Traditional Karate training isnt suitable for everyone. Hell, some people really want to be Ninjas. Just because someone is selling something that isnt right for you doesnt mean its wrong for everyone else too.
    And people with this same fucking "Super-Size Me" attitude are prime candidates for Mile High Karate. Why don't you go watch that movie "Super Size Me" and then tell me what is wrong with this type of attitude.
  8. mrgoshthereturn is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/21/2008 8:16am


     Style: shotokai/bjj/MT/ex-BBT

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by StephenOliver


    Impractical training methods

    Bullshido is also said, by proponents of the concept, to consist of training methods that are impractical if they are used outside of the context of the bullshido school. Noted martial artists such as Bruce Lee and Jon Bluming have asserted that board-breaking and kata (forms) are of limited benefit towards actual fighting proficiency and often used as "filler" to occupy class time.

    They suggest that the best means to prepare to use one's skills in a realistic situation is through the use of full or hard contact, non-stop sparring with which students' current skill levels can be realistically evaluated.
    Our Training methods are realistic.


    Such as on section 2, P8. "Write down something you did in the house or at school that you did not have to be told to do by your parents or teachers...When you have completed 30 lines you will recieve a discipline award..."
    ~Oliver.s: "Welcome to mile high Karate "

    I ask how this is an effective martial practice, while i agree that self discipline is neccessary as a life skill, bullshido concerns itself with self-defence.





    I claim no exaggerated lineage. All of my background – and, some of the background of staff & instructors is openly available on-line or to our students. See: http://www.MileHighKarate.com

    Personally. I began training in Americanized Tae Kwon Do under the Jhoon Rhee system in 1969 in Tulsa, OK. I trained with Jhoon Rhee Black Belts: Bob Olinghouse, Gran Moulder & David Harrelson.

    Who? Ok my knowledge of tang soo do lacks here, but the art's origins are questionable at best, not that most arts can be traced back over 100 years, but thats a debate for historians.







    With regard to Mile High Karate being a McDojo. That’s also ridiculous.

    Definition:
    McDojo is an example of McWords applied to martial arts dojo.[1] The term sometimes is uses as a pejorative term used by some Western martial artists to describe a martial arts school where image or profit is of a higher importance than technical standards. A McDojo (used as a noun) is a martial arts school of any style that uses specific business practices or principles for the purpose of generating revenue for the school.

    A McDojo (used as a noun) is a martial arts school of any style that uses specific business practices or principles for the purpose of generating revenue for the school



    and again i quote: "Many existing scholl owners worried about several potential obstacles...they didn't know much about marketing, sales, administration...Mile high karate is one of the top schools in North America because we have mastered each of those functions"
    Olivier.S "Welcome to mile high Karate " p25-26



    While the martial credentials of mile high are interesting, it can be assumed they are open to debate. It does appear going by the quote above that mastery of marketing and sales are of paramount importance. Little detail is placed on martial practices, and the brochure portrays a family learning environment, which is great but is there any awareness given to customes pre-contract that the training thy will recieve may result in injury and (although HIGHLY unlikely) even death. Is the customer made awaree of the contact nature of the sport? There is also little information on sylabbus, gradings and costs.

    Surely this information should be in the public domain.

    While i canot comment on the standard of martial arts taught, the brochure's evidence does point to to a trend towards being a mcdojo. I look forward to any evidence that can be presented showing that martial training is placed before making a profit.
    Last edited by mrgoshthereturn; 5/21/2008 8:20am at .
  9. Takemydo is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/21/2008 5:28pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Iaido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    mods plese delete
    Last edited by Takemydo; 5/21/2008 5:48pm at . Reason: double post
  10. Takemydo is offline

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    Posted On:
    5/21/2008 5:28pm

    Bullshido Newbie
     Style: Iaido

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    You guys are spot on about this over a milion served mcdojo. I must have been wrong, but I thought a byproduct of training hard was self discipline and self confidence.
    Heck, now I can throw that out the window and just get a "life coach" that will blow a bunch of sunshine and rainbows up my buttox while teaching me "krotty"

    Oliver and his ilk seemd to have tapped into a percentage of americans mindset thats:
    insecure, "I want it now so I'll buy it", and impatent. Impatient meaning, I wanna be a black belt...sign me up. They sell the illusion of what the uneducated public thinks martial Arts is about.


    As far as his business skills, it's obvious he has them, but i definatly wouldn't call what he/they do martial arts..just "krotty"
    I trained at one of Olivers poster boys schools for a short time, about 2 years.
    There was alot of claping, rah rah sis boom bah, alot of smiles, alot of feel good stuff. noone failed a test..that would mean a feel bad expierience and possably cost a loss of student retention.

    I thought the similarity of these links interesting:

    http://www.martialarts-mastermind.com/

    http://www.karateisgoodforyou.com/silver/
    Last edited by Takemydo; 5/21/2008 5:39pm at .

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