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  1. StephenOliver is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 2:06pm


     Style: Amer. TKD, Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!

    Perception of Quality....

    Quote Originally Posted by OnceLost
    My comment was a direct response to your instruction to MA school owners to increase the perception of value that their program has to offer, which is a damn shade different than actually improving their program to offer better content. It's the same old instruction but with a new marketing job.
    I actually teach them to improve the perception by doing two things:

    1. Improving the quality of what they teach and how they teaching it. Often this includes adding in better physical curriculum or enhancing the mental and emotional elements of their training.

    2. Educating their students to what quality martial arts instruction looks like and how it should be interpreted. As pointed out earlier in this forum most prospective students don't initially know good from bad.

    We are mostly NOT trying to convince anyone that what their child is learning is "deadly" however we do work to make sure they have excellent defense skills - such as typlified in the article mentioned earlier RE the 14 year old girl who defended herself effectively (Against a healthly looking - mid-30's - Male attempting to assault her.)

    See Black Belt Magazine.
    August 11, 2006
    A Symbol of Hope by Karen Eden - Black Belt Magazine June 2006
    http://www.milehighkarate.com/press_...s_archive.html


    Stephen Oliver
    Mile High Karate.
    http://www.MileHighKarate.com


    Instructor & School Owner Resources referenced:
    http://www.ExtraordinaryMarketing.com
    http://www.MartialArts-Mastermind.com
  2. GoldenJonas is offline

    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 2:13pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by StephenOliver
    --------------
    Contracts
    One commonly seen McDojo practice in martial arts schools is the use of long-term contracts (6 months or longer in length) to lock students into a monthly payment, usually by direct debit/deposit from a bank account. These contracts are generally structured so that a student would have to die, be seriously injured, or move a minimum distance away from their current place of residence in order to be released from the terms of the deal. Students who are dissatisfied with their training or are unable to continue participating for reasons beyond these can find themselves forced to continue paying for unwanted lessons.
    We do require contracts. Essentially all professionally run, commercial schools do – and, should. The greatest battle that we face is over student attrition. Quality instruction alone does not guarantee that a student will continue (for that matter, neither does a contract.)

    We do not sue on contracts.

    Allow very broad cancellation options.
    If you do not plan on enforcing them why do you have them. Typically, the "oh don't worry about that Mr./Ms. Parent, its just a formality, we will work with you" line is borderline fraudulent (see causes of action for Fraud in the Inducement and Negligent or Fraudulent Misrepresentation, possibly even refer the Unfair and Deceptive Trade Practices Act for your particular state and whether it applies to consumer contracts) sales tactic used to rope in the gullable.

    If you have no intention of holding your client to the contract, why do you have them at all.

    GJ
  3. OnceLost is offline
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    Here's looking at you, squid.

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    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 2:21pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Ke?po, MMA ultra-newb

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    enhancing the mental and emotional elements of their training.
    Please explain. I'm not asking for a free seminar, just the basics of mental and emotional martial arts education.

    2. Educating their students to what quality martial arts instruction looks like and how it should be interpreted.
    Does this mean making your school look like quality martial arts instruction? If someone came to one of your schools and said they were interested strictly in the self defense aspects of MA, how would you respond?

    Also, please respond to my question in Post 143.
    Do you have a standard you apply to determine if someone is a "Good Martial Artist" before you teach them how to market their school?
    "Reason is a choice. Wishes and whims are not facts, nor are they a means to discovering them. Reason is our only way to grasping reality -- it's our basic tool of survival. We are free to evade the effort of thinking, to reject reason, but we are not free to avoid the penalty of the abyss we refuse to see."
    - Terry Goodkind, "Faith of the Fallen"
  4. Art is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 2:31pm


     Style: TKD, wrestling, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by StephenOliver
    I actually teach them to improve the perception by doing two things:

    1. Improving the quality of what they teach and how they teaching it. Often this includes adding in better physical curriculum or enhancing the mental and emotional elements of their training.
    So how do you do this? Give them better exercises, different variety of exercises. What qualifies you to instruct this? I'm not going to question your marketing aspects of what you spread, but what qualifies you to teach anything in relating to better physical curriculum/exercise/mental/etc . . .

    2. Educating their students to what quality martial arts instruction looks like and how it should be interpreted. As pointed out earlier in this forum most prospective students don't initially know good from bad.
    Bias, if you think what quality martial arts instruction looks like what you do then of course you are going to use it as an example. Again **** begets ****. I don't want to have someone come to me and say that this is what quality instruction looks like, because they were told that's how it looks like. I want someone to come to me and say this is what quality instruction is, and here is the output of quality instruction in the form of student success . . . on whatever scale you build that on. This begs the question what is quality instruction/education. Tell me how you achieve this, not how you tell someone what it is supposed to be.

    We are mostly NOT trying to convince anyone that what their child is learning is "deadly" however we do work to make sure they have excellent defense skills - such as typlified in the article mentioned earlier RE the 14 year old girl who defended herself effectively (Against a healthly looking - mid-30's - Male attempting to assault her.)
    How do you ensure that everyone has these skills. One student's successful defense of herself does not indicate that the whole demograph is able to. Didn't read the article, nor do I care to (thing against BB mag), but I would like to ask who the author is? Do you know Karen? Is she a staff writer for the magazine or was this article a submitted article?
  5. Tom Kagan is offline
    Tom Kagan's Avatar

    Dark Overlord of the Bullshido Underworld

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    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 2:32pm

    supporting member
     Style: Taai Si Ji Kung Fu

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    My $2.22 (adjusted for inflation) on the McDojo scale:


    Comparing MA fees and costs to the fees and costs of a college education is a form of a sleazy marketing tactic better known as bait and switch.

    There is no comparison to what you learn at a MA school versus college (except they both cost money). A college degree is useful outside of the world of college. MA training and/or certification is not useful outside of the insular world of MA.

    Juxtaposing what is learned in a MA school and college in order to make allusions they are somehow equivalent is slimy. THEY ARE NOT THE SAME.

    (If you want to make comparisons to a trade school, that's at least more in line with what is learned at a MA school.)
    Calm down, it's only ones and zeros.

    "Your calm and professional manner of response is really draining all the fun out of this. Can you reply more like Dr. Fagbot or something? Call me some names, mention some sand in my vagina or something of the sort. You can't expect me to come up with reasonable arguments man!" -- MaverickZ

    "Tom Kagan spins in his grave and the fucking guy isn't even dead yet." -- Snake Plissken

    My Bullshido fan club threads:
    Tom Kagan's a big hairy...
    Tom Kagan can lick my BALLS
    Tom Kagan teaches _ing __un and bigotry?
    Tom Kagan: Serious discussion here
    Lamokio asks the burning question is Tom Kagan a ***** or just cruising for some
    I'm Dave the gay Kickboxer from Manchester and I have the hots for Tom Kagan
    TOM KAGAN, OPEN ME, THE MKT ARE COMING FOR YOU ! ARE YOU MAN ENOUGH TO MEET ?
    ATTN TOM KAGAN
    World Dominator 'Kagan' in plot to lie about real Kung Fu and Martial Arts
    Tom Kagan just gave me my third negative rep in a day
    I am infatuated with Tom Kagan
    Tom Kagan is a fat balding white guy.
  6. OZZ is offline
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    Light Heavyweight

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    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 2:46pm

    supporting member
     Style: Short Fist Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by StephenOliver
    I would at first glance agree with you, and we continue to grapple with age & rank requirements. The example you mentioned would look something like this:

    Age 7 – 4 years: 1st Degree Black Belt = Age 11
    Age 11 – 3 years: 2nd Degree Black Belt = Age 14
    Age 14 – 4 years: 3rd Degree Black Belt = Age 18.

    Typical time in rank to Black Belt = 3 ½ to 4 years.
    1st to 2nd = 3 to 4 years. (Minimum 2 ½)
    3nd to 3rd = 3 years or more. (Minimum 3)

    Different time line than most BJJ guys are used to but typical of quality Karate, TKD, Kung Fu Schools.

    When catering to younger and younger kids starting the issue is how to promote appropriately and at what rank. At the younger ranks we add belts to slow them down. Lengthen the Black Belt Preparation Process and have age minimums – in this example 18 would be the age minimum for 3rd Degree.

    You can agree or disagree.

    However, an 18 year old who’s been training since they were 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7 – is incredibly gifted (within our school anyway) and, have both tremendous technique and tremendous leadership skills.

    Stephen Oliver
    Mile High Karate
    http://www.MileHighKarate.com
    Call me old-school , but I believe the concept of 11yr.olds with Black Belts around their waists is absolutely ludicrous. But, then again, so is the belt system to begin with.
    Belts are like carrots in commercial schools nowadays, but even when they used to mean something, you would never see a child with a Black Belt ranking at a legitimate Martial Arts club. To give ranks like BB to children is an insult to old timers who worked their asses off for many years.
    That's my opinion, anyways.
    " If one wants to have a friend one must also want to wage war for him: and to wage war one must be capable of being an enemy." - Fr. Nietzsche 'On The Friend' Thus Spake Zarathustra
  7. Kintanon is offline
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    Yes, I am smarter than you are.

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    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 2:49pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    That's one of the things I really liked about my old TKD school, if you were under 16 you could NOT get an adult black belt. You got a provisional BB that meant you KNEW the material, but weren't considered able to effectively use it simply due to your age. When you were 16 you retested with more rigorous sparring requirements and were granted your Adult BB (assuming you handled yourself well) . I think our minimum age to third degree bb ended up being 20 or 21.

    Kintanon
  8. OnceLost is offline
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    Here's looking at you, squid.

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    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 2:56pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Ke?po, MMA ultra-newb

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Incidentally, there are a variety of stories and news articles about the successful use of self defense by women and children. I have a file where I keep electronic versions of the stories to mention when I teach self defense classes, with the intention of communicating that the willingness to defend yourself can be far more important than the techniques...

    That said, there was also an article about a kid who managed to chase away two home-invasion robbers by dressing in a Power Ranger outfit and smacking them with a plastic sword...
    "Reason is a choice. Wishes and whims are not facts, nor are they a means to discovering them. Reason is our only way to grasping reality -- it's our basic tool of survival. We are free to evade the effort of thinking, to reject reason, but we are not free to avoid the penalty of the abyss we refuse to see."
    - Terry Goodkind, "Faith of the Fallen"
  9. Sam Browning is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 3:16pm

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenJonas
    If you do not plan on enforcing them why do you have them. Typically, the "oh don't worry about that Mr./Ms. Parent, its just a formality, we will work with you" line is borderline fraudulent (see causes of action for Fraud in the Inducement and Negligent or Fraudulent Misrepresentation, possibly even refer the Unfair and Deceptive Trade Practices Act for your particular state and whether it applies to consumer contracts) sales tactic used to rope in the gullable.

    If you have no intention of holding your client to the contract, why do you have them at all.

    GJ
    Well he may not sue, but what about your billing company Mr. Oliver? the corporation that collects on the billings.

    BTW my complements on your student's performance. The fact that the attacker helped set himself up for a punch doesn't really matter. Someone at your school taught her how to hit with power, and she took the opening.
  10. StephenOliver is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 3:30pm


     Style: Amer. TKD, Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Samuel Browning
    Well he may not sue, but what about your billing company Mr. Oliver? the corporation that collects on the billings.

    BTW my complements on your student's performance. The fact that the attacker helped set himself up for a punch doesn't really matter. Someone at your school taught her how to hit with power, and she took the opening.
    They have strict guidelines on what they are allowed to do with any contract. Try to get them back to class. Drop it after 90 days. Instructors call to get the student back to class .

    We are very concerned not to have them pissing people off in the community who just won't or don't want to come back for whatever reason - which unfortunately can include a service gap on our end from time to time.

    Stephen Oliver.

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