230590 Bullies, 3606 online  
  • Register
Our Sponsors:

Results 131 to 140 of 441
Page 14 of 45 FirstFirst ... 41011121314 1516171824 ... LastLast
Sponsored Links Spacer Image
  1. StephenOliver is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Evergreen, Colorado
    Posts
    81

    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 1:37pm


     Style: Amer. TKD, Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega the Merciless
    Actually you'd be surprised on the points I agree with you on there Mr. Oliver. Like I said, my main problem stems from me being biased. That bias comes from me and others being burned by people who I percieve to be just like you.
    Burned how, by whom?

    Clearly there's lots of two types in the industry:

    Get rich pitchmen: Some who disregard service and student proficiency. In the mainstream school trade magazines I've been railing against that for years. (ie. MA Professional Magazine within NAPMA Squared, via Email newsletter, etc., etc. It's a huge problem and taints everyone. Others pitch sales, marketing, advertising advice which either just doesn't work - or which seriously jeapardizes the image of our industry and screws prospective students.

    Another serious problem is that anyone can - and do open a school without adequate martial arts skills, teaching skills, and administrative skills. The industry is a minefield of failed schools. Many excellent martial artists fail due to inadequate administrative or marketing skills. Many "slick sales & marketing" types sell contracts for hot air and limited results for their students. Both type need to be weeded out as quickly as possible. I try to help the Good Martial Artists with Marketing, Sales, and Administrative Training. With my own schools are emphasis is weighted to at least 75% focus on skills proficiency and student retention - but, there will always be a need for sales, marketing, and business management skills.

    Stephen Oliver.
  2. It is Fake is offline
    It is Fake's Avatar

    Administrator

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    34,062

    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 1:41pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Okay first off read the thread. Let's read the first response after a possible troll job by a disgruntled student WITH A JOIN DATE OF JAN 2007. The same month as you.

    Obviously, you have a bias beacuse, you judged this whole website, on this individual.


    Quote Originally Posted by datamachine
    Well most users will say this but I will be the first. If you are a former student, employee, lover, etc., then it is good to make a note of that first and foremost. The members here don't like to be used to help someone settle a personal grudge.
    Quote Originally Posted by askari
    He's right. There are a lot of martial arts clubs that dont make ends meet, regardless of the ability of the instructor.

    Ever read anything about Rorion Gracie? He realized this as well and created the UFC as part of his marketing plan for Gracie Jiu-Jitsu.

    Exactly, the whole story would definitely be worth having here.


    Quote Originally Posted by El-Wood
    sounds like a smart guy - never mind the mcdojoism

    Quote Originally Posted by askari
    Well Courage, if the worst thing you can say about the guy is that he encourages kids to clean their room.

    Well maybe I need to enroll my kids there.

    I dont see any no-touch knockouts, I dont see any claims to be teh deadly street fighter to deadly for the UFC or fake championships. And most importantly, I dont see any poo sniffing.

    It didnt take much searching to find out where he got his black belt, or when he received his shodan or when and from who he received his higher belt ranks. I'll give you a clue, its Korean Karate.

    It looks McDojo-ish-lite, it looks like it would be an easy place to get ranks (just turn up to class, johnny gets his blacke belt), it looks like it belongs in a Capitalist country. And it looks like a businessman who makes a lot of money. Nothing wrong with that as far as I can tell.

    I have a fairly low opinion of strip-club Karate in terms of the quality of the fighters, but it doesnt make this one bullshido.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nuch Chorris
    God forbid someone makes a kid do their homework or clean their fucking room. Granted, that should be the parents who do so, but if they get hired help in the form of a Karate teacher then by all means, do your worst!!!

    Nothing on the website screams out McDojo to me other than the typical (look at my badass face while I kick above your head) pictures. We are just going off of the website though. Do you have a copy of their contract or price sheet that shows what their rates are? Most schools these days won't give you that info over the phone or I'd call.

    Not saying they aren't a McDojo, but so far it just seems like a McDojo Lite.

    Quote Originally Posted by kobudo
    Agreed. One of the things that first attracted me to the martial arts was the emphasis on development of character: doing what you need to/should do, especially when you don't feel like it. While it seems a bit odd that a MA instructor should directly incorporate this into his lessons by rewarding specific, unrelated tasks, I see no problem with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by botunga
    Here is the question that seems to be unanswered....What has he claimed that is false, or what has he promised that is not true? If he is claiming he made a good living in the arts, and it is true, then where is the bs? Are there any false rank claims that you can document, or other deceptions? If so, great. If not, he's not really what this is all about. If you think his system sucks, and you went elsewhere, then that is just freedom of choice. Did he attempt to restrain you from leaving, or bad mouth you, or anything else that was coercive or manipulative?

    Quote Originally Posted by hvyhands81
    the rest of that stuff just seems like good marketing. thats not the first "flight saftey martial arts class" that i've seen, although I cant speak to the validity of what is taught in the seminar.

    and as for promoting a kid with disabilities, come on, are you heartless? If its helping him, then I think its great.
    Quote Originally Posted by oncelost
    I think the majority of people here are asking if this guy has made any claims that he can't back up - World Champion of So-and-So, No Touch KOs, personally taught the entire US army in H2H, that kinda thing. Is it a McDojo? It sure looks like it. But McDojo's don't need to be debunked, while fraud does.

    Think of it this way - think of a cheap fast food joint. Everyone knows they serve inferior burgers. Okay, no biggie - they aren't claiming to do anything else. Most people here aren't going to jump on the protesters' bandwagon unless that fast food place is claiming to serve prime rib and lobster tail...
    This is also for the people coming in late. Many posters on this thread agree with your assessment Kinaton and Ozz. Even Omega restated his opinion, way before S.O. appeared.

    Oliver chose to ignore all of these comments and judged bullshido on 2 negative responses.:wtfgif9fr

    Well, as everyone knows that is life.

    Not everyone is going to agree. Thing is if you have an over 100 post thread about yourself on bullshido and only 2 posters disagree. I think that is a really good check in your favor.

    Yet, he kept posting a manifesto and slinging poo all over the place. So, as he continues to post more and more red flags surface.

    You have confirmed your Mcdojo status 100% Stephen Oliver, get over the drama. Omega claims Mcdojo status on many threads.


    I wish people would learn to separate bullshido from McDojo. They would then receive free plublicity on bullshido.
    Last edited by It is Fake; 2/01/2007 1:44pm at .
  3. StephenOliver is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Evergreen, Colorado
    Posts
    81

    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 1:42pm


     Style: Amer. TKD, Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Art
    Personally I haven't received any of this propaganda myself . . . and nor do I want to, but this is complete bullshit. The purpose of school should be first and foremost to produce quality students. No where in this marketing dribble do I see anything that promotes the development of the instruction, the students, curriculum. All I see is "Get the people in the door, empty their wallets, tell them they've done good, give them a hug and a reach around"

    What you offer and what the quality is should be the basis of what you charge. Not charge what you want and then offer what you are able to.

    Here's what I consider to be good buisness practice for a school.
    1) Get students
    2) Teach students
    3) Retain students through good instruction and quality training

    Not get students, get more students, make them pay more . . . bull fucking ****.

    If your only available asset is marketing, then you are in the wrong business, go sell some jeans. **** begets **** and if all you are selling is fuzzy good feelings then that is not a school . . . that's a support group.

    All this talk about education and teaching but no where is it mentioned about developing this, just getting people to hand over money, makes me fucking sick. I'm a teacher and that goes against everything I've been taught/studied/done. Students first . . . everything else second.
    Couldn't agree more on this:

    First priority is and always must be the highest possible quality curriculum, teaching methods, and student outcomes.

    All that great marketing will do for a bad school is put them out of business more quickly - the word gets around fast.

    You are clearly taking this stuff out of context. Take a great teacher with a great curriculum and overlay quality marketing and sales methods and he'll give great service to alot more students. Do the same thing to someone who's a fraud or only interested in the money and you hasten them to bankrupsy court. Good for them to go out of business. Bad, to have them burn people in the processs.

    If you figure out a way to screen the flakes and insincere instructors - let me know.

    Stephen Oliver.
  4. Sam Browning is online now

    Join Date
    Apr 2003
    Location
    New England
    Posts
    9,872

    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 1:42pm

    hall of famestaff
     

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I'm still trying to find out Mr. Oliver what you are offering in your leadership classes that justify an addition $100 a month taking the price up to at least $3,600 a year.

    Are a certain number of private lessons built into that charge? (I believe thats the tracy method)

    BTW, lets say I sign a contract with you, as a student and six months in I need to cancel it, lets say the reason is work related. What is the penalty on canceling this contract. Do I still owe you the complete outstanding amount or do you have a liquidated damages clause?
  5. OnceLost is offline
    OnceLost's Avatar

    Here's looking at you, squid.

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    North Florida
    Posts
    2,860

    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 1:44pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Ke?po, MMA ultra-newb

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I try to help the Good Martial Artists with Marketing, Sales, and Administrative Training.
    Do you have a standard you apply to determine if someone if a "Good Martial Artist?"
    "Reason is a choice. Wishes and whims are not facts, nor are they a means to discovering them. Reason is our only way to grasping reality -- it's our basic tool of survival. We are free to evade the effort of thinking, to reject reason, but we are not free to avoid the penalty of the abyss we refuse to see."
    - Terry Goodkind, "Faith of the Fallen"
  6. Coach Josh is offline
    Coach Josh's Avatar

    Silent Guardian

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Lafayette, LA
    Posts
    2,184

    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 1:45pm

    Business Class Supporting Member
     Gladiators Academy Lafayette, LA Style: Judo, MMA, White Trash JJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    While many here believe that you Mr. Miller have credentials that are reputable. The problem lies with the people that you assist or instruct to use your marketing program who are not. While many instructors and club owners can use some help in this area. Many can not resort to slick salesmanship to get people into our classes. I have closed my Judo club down because of my inability to market the program correctly. I see other instructors teaching karate and making a living out of it while I could not. I also see that it was because I did a poor job of educating the community on the benefits of Judo. That being said I would not sacrifice my integrity to bolster my enrollment. There is a middle ground that can be reached for all of use in marketing and representation of our respective art forms. Currently I am in the process of rebuilding my club and things are moving smoothly. The problem many have with your system is the used car salesman approach to getting people to join. While many people will have to be educated about your school in order for them to join, we do not see why they should be misled. Monthly cost figures aside why should someone pay more to be on a special program? What are the benefits of a leadership program? I have yet to see this answered.


    With the Mcdojo title you so oppose comes a certain amount of responsibility. Do you say this can be used for self defense but we can't really practice it because it may hurt someone? Do you abide the promotion of young children to black belt status? Does your marketing program conform to the flavor of the month? Meaning if aikido is big in the movies do you condone using sayings or phrases that would mislead a person to believe you did something akin to aikido or like it but better.

    While we all understand that not everyone would like to become a no holds barred fighter its disparaging to the martial arts when people train others in the martial arts with no real concern for the individuals welfare. The public perception of martial arts as being a viable system of self defense and physical education is tarnished everyday. People market to others insecurities and self doubt to ensnare them into a lower grade health club activity and label it martial arts. What we are after is a truth in advertising. I have seen traditional martial arts and what is done here in the US doesn’t come close. The MMA, BJJ, and Judo clubs are the ones representing the truth in martial arts today.

    Can you market this? You are going to leave class today with a bloody lip and a jammed toe and some various bruises on your body. You will get punched in the head, slammed to the ground and have your arm bent in a direction not intended by the manufacturer. I really think what we are trying to get as that we wish people would stop using the term martial arts to describe aerobic exercise, performance art, and untested self defense techniques.

    In summary please answer the following.
    • What are the benefits of a leadership program?
    • Why should someone pay more for it?
    • Do you say this can be used for self defense but we can't really practice it because it may hurt someone?
    • Do you abide the promotion of young children to black belt status?
    • Does your marketing program conform to the flavor of the month?
    • Do you verify the rank of people attending any instructor seminar?
  7. OnceLost is offline
    OnceLost's Avatar

    Here's looking at you, squid.

    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    North Florida
    Posts
    2,860

    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 1:47pm

    Join us... or die
     Style: Ke?po, MMA ultra-newb

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Interesting quote.
    Not really what the parents of the 7 years olds are most interested in accomplishing.
    My comment was a direct response to your instruction to MA school owners to increase the perception of value that their program has to offer, which is a damn shade different than actually improving their program to offer better content. It's the same old instruction but with a new marketing job.
    "Reason is a choice. Wishes and whims are not facts, nor are they a means to discovering them. Reason is our only way to grasping reality -- it's our basic tool of survival. We are free to evade the effort of thinking, to reject reason, but we are not free to avoid the penalty of the abyss we refuse to see."
    - Terry Goodkind, "Faith of the Fallen"
  8. Art is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Posts
    294

    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 1:52pm


     Style: TKD, wrestling, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by StephenOliver
    Couldn't agree more on this:

    First priority is and always must be the highest possible quality curriculum, teaching methods, and student outcomes.

    All that great marketing will do for a bad school is put them out of business more quickly - the word gets around fast.

    You are clearly taking this stuff out of context. Take a great teacher with a great curriculum and overlay quality marketing and sales methods and he'll give great service to alot more students. Do the same thing to someone who's a fraud or only interested in the money and you hasten them to bankrupsy court. Good for them to go out of business. Bad, to have them burn people in the processs.

    If you figure out a way to screen the flakes and insincere instructors - let me know.

    Stephen Oliver.
    Okay I got it, don't sell **** that allows other people to sell ****. I'm interested in you addressing Samuel's question. You haven't mentioned a single thing about student development/instructor development/curriculum development, the only thing I've read (albeit it quickly so if I missed something I'll backtrack) is about getting people to give you money.
  9. StephenOliver is offline

    Registered Member

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Evergreen, Colorado
    Posts
    81

    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 1:56pm


     Style: Amer. TKD, Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OZZ
    Yeah, well..you just keep churning out your 18 yr old 3rd degree Black Belts and have a merry time of it.
    I would at first glance agree with you, and we continue to grapple with age & rank requirements. The example you mentioned would look something like this:

    Age 7 – 4 years: 1st Degree Black Belt = Age 11
    Age 11 – 3 years: 2nd Degree Black Belt = Age 14
    Age 14 – 4 years: 3rd Degree Black Belt = Age 18.

    Typical time in rank to Black Belt = 3 ½ to 4 years.
    1st to 2nd = 3 to 4 years. (Minimum 2 ½)
    3nd to 3rd = 3 years or more. (Minimum 3)

    Different time line than most BJJ guys are used to but typical of quality Karate, TKD, Kung Fu Schools.

    When catering to younger and younger kids starting the issue is how to promote appropriately and at what rank. At the younger ranks we add belts to slow them down. Lengthen the Black Belt Preparation Process and have age minimums – in this example 18 would be the age minimum for 3rd Degree.

    You can agree or disagree.

    However, an 18 year old who’s been training since they were 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7 – is incredibly gifted (within our school anyway) and, have both tremendous technique and tremendous leadership skills.

    Stephen Oliver
    Mile High Karate
    http://www.MileHighKarate.com
  10. It is Fake is offline
    It is Fake's Avatar

    Administrator

    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    34,062

    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 2:01pm

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by StephenOliver
    I would at first glance agree with you, and we continue to grapple with age & rank requirements. The example you mentioned would look something like this:

    Age 7 – 4 years: 1st Degree Black Belt = Age 11
    Age 11 – 3 years: 2nd Degree Black Belt = Age 14
    Age 14 – 4 years: 3rd Degree Black Belt = Age 18.

    Typical time in rank to Black Belt = 3 ½ to 4 years.
    1st to 2nd = 3 to 4 years. (Minimum 2 ½)
    3nd to 3rd = 3 years or more. (Minimum 3)

    Different time line than most BJJ guys are used to but typical of quality Karate, TKD, Kung Fu Schools.

    When catering to younger and younger kids starting the issue is how to promote appropriately and at what rank. At the younger ranks we add belts to slow them down. Lengthen the Black Belt Preparation Process and have age minimums – in this example 18 would be the age minimum for 3rd Degree.

    You can agree or disagree.

    However, an 18 year old who’s been training since they were 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7 – is incredibly gifted (within our school anyway) and, have both tremendous technique and tremendous leadership skills.

    Stephen Oliver
    Mile High Karate
    http://www.MileHighKarate.com
    No actually that is a typical amount of years in most TMA. So, quit trying to act like you do somethinmg different. I'm wondering if you borrowed the rank process from another McDojo in your area. Yes, I encountered you guys back in the 90's that wasn't your original ranking system.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Powered by vBulletin™© contact@vbulletin.com vBulletin Solutions, Inc. 2011 All rights reserved.