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  1. OnceLost is offline
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    Here's looking at you, squid.

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    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 10:47am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Ke?po, MMA ultra-newb

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    If you are not receiving that tuition rate, or are afraid prospective students will balk at that amount of tuition, then you need to learn to create the perception of value for your students — and their parents.
    This is the point I've been trying to make the entire time - are they actually getting what they're paying for or are they misguided into thinking they are? It's obviously where your focus is.

    Competitors as instructors often is counter-productive.
    The instructor doesn't have to be a competitor - Bella Karoli does a bang up job and he hasn't done a back tuck in a looong time. The difference is that his students do compete and do well, so you can expect to pay more for his training than you do at the local YMCA. Where is the substance that justifies the higher prices your system charges?
    "Reason is a choice. Wishes and whims are not facts, nor are they a means to discovering them. Reason is our only way to grasping reality -- it's our basic tool of survival. We are free to evade the effort of thinking, to reject reason, but we are not free to avoid the penalty of the abyss we refuse to see."
    - Terry Goodkind, "Faith of the Fallen"
  2. It is Fake is offline
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    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 10:51am

    staff
     Style: xingyi

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OnceLost
    This is the point I've been trying to make the entire time - are they actually getting what they're paying for or are they misguided into thinking they are? It's obviously where your focus is.


    The instructor doesn't have to be a competitor - Bella Karoli does a bang up job and he hasn't done a back tuck in a looong time. The difference is that his students do compete and do well, so you can expect to pay more for his training than you do at the local YMCA. Where is the substance that justifies the higher prices your system charges?
    You know I swear if you are a questionable MA artist or Mcdojoist you must write a manifesto to hide these little gems.

    To me it reads promote the deadly and you can charge what you want.
  3. OnceLost is offline
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    Here's looking at you, squid.

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    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 11:43am

    Join us... or die
     Style: Ke?po, MMA ultra-newb

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Promote the perception of the deadly, anyway...
    "Reason is a choice. Wishes and whims are not facts, nor are they a means to discovering them. Reason is our only way to grasping reality -- it's our basic tool of survival. We are free to evade the effort of thinking, to reject reason, but we are not free to avoid the penalty of the abyss we refuse to see."
    - Terry Goodkind, "Faith of the Fallen"
  4. StephenOliver is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 12:20pm


     Style: Amer. TKD, Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    I entered this forum due to unfounded claims that my schools were a McDojo – and that we were practicing “bullshido” and that I personally somehow as deemed immoral or unethical. By your standards as I understand them let’s explore:

    Bullshido (I have edited this entry but tried to keep the intent in tact:)


    The term bullshido was popularized by the Bullshido.net website. In recent usage the bilingual portmanteau reflects a claim held by some in the martial arts community that there are those who train to learn how to fight, those who train to pretend they know how to fight, and those who claim that they can learn how to fight on the street without ever having fought in the dojo.

    In the past, the traditional martial arts community had a system of references. This system of references between different schools would effectively vouch for each other's legitimacy, allowing the community to police itself. A tradition in East Asia was that when an unknown and unreferenced school would open in a community, it would be eventually shut down by other schools nearby through direct challenges - this was a way to develop references for legitimate schools, while exposing fraudulent or ineffective schools and forcing them to close before they could harm or defraud potential students.

    School exclusivity

    One traditional practice some at Bullshido.net consider to be bullshido is the demand that students not be a part of any other martial arts school of the same style during their tenure at the school, without permission from the instructor.

    Point 1.
    We don’t force exclusivity, however training at two Tae Kwon Do Schools (or, two of basically the same style) would in most cases be counter productive. We encourage our Black Belts and our Instructors to “Cross Train” in other arts. Many of our Instructors regularly train in Boxing Gyms. We have several with BJJ training including one with a Black Belt in BJJ on staff. We have others with extensive background in escrima. We include cross training in BJJ, Escrima, Kickboxing skills and other non-traditional movement and encourage this among our Instructors and Black Belts.

    I claim no special expertise in or particular interest in BJJ, I’ve always had an interest in Kickboxing and in JKD as well as our base American TKD background with Jhoon Rhee.

    Impractical training methods

    Bullshido is also said, by proponents of the concept, to consist of training methods that are impractical if they are used outside of the context of the bullshido school. Noted martial artists such as Bruce Lee and Jon Bluming have asserted that board-breaking and kata (forms) are of limited benefit towards actual fighting proficiency and often used as "filler" to occupy class time.

    They suggest that the best means to prepare to use one's skills in a realistic situation is through the use of full or hard contact, non-stop sparring with which students' current skill levels can be realistically evaluated.
    Our Training methods are realistic.

    We do Teach Kata (or Hyung) but do not consider that to be practical training for fighting or defense. We rarely, if ever teach board breaking. I do not consider Kata “Filler” It is a valuable approach to coordination & fitness – however, traditional forms typically neither model realistic fighting application nor do they support creating the timing, distance, and reaction time necessary for realistic encounters.

    My Instructor (Jhoon Rhee) introduced padded sparring gear to the Martial Arts community and helped to usher in full-contact kickboxing. This was in part due to influence from Bruce Lee regarding more realistic training and in part due to Pat Worley’s injury in tournament competition – looking for safer training methods.

    Full-Contact sparring is not a reasonable approach for a wide range of participants. We do focus on kids, especially at the younger end – ie. 3 to 9 year olds. We certainly do not let them spar full-contact.

    False/exaggerated lineage

    A common but harmful practice considered to be bullshido is the use of a fictitous or exaggerated lineage to prominent figures in martial arts in order to boost the school's image. Such claims of lineage are typically unverifiable, whereas training under a legitimate school can easily be verified.

    I claim no exaggerated lineage. All of my background – and, some of the background of staff & instructors is openly available on-line or to our students. See: http://www.MileHighKarate.com

    Personally. I began training in Americanized Tae Kwon Do under the Jhoon Rhee system in 1969 in Tulsa, OK. I trained with Jhoon Rhee Black Belts: Bob Olinghouse, Gran Moulder & David Harrelson. Between them they had a mixed background additionally of Goju & Judo among other things.

    Our training in the early days was rather eclectic. Combining military type knife fighting with Judo, Point Fighting, and a mix of other stuff.

    Jhoon Rhee (along with Jeff Smith, and the rest of the Jhoon Rhee Staff) promoted me to 1st Degree Black Belt in 1978. I moved to Washington to attend Georgetown and Teach full-time from 1980, 1981, 1982. I trained in Kickboxing & American Tae Kwon Do & Boxing during that time (most of our instructors were professional Kickboxers.) I moved to Denver in 1983 and open Mile High Karate. Jhoon Rhee promoted me to 6th Degree Black Belt, Jeff Smith promoted me to 7th Degree then 8th Degree Black Belt.

    I’ve trained through most of the under Black Belt Tracy’s kenpo system with Roger Green in Tulsa, done a considerable amount of boxing & kickboxing training (Washington, DC – Jeff Smith & many others, have studied a smattering of Judo, Goju, BJJ, JKD, and Kenpo while claiming no special expertise in any of these.

    Check my references.

    Developing tremendous or mystical abilities from training

    The conditioning resulting from rigorous martial or physical training can allow a person physical abilities beyond those of the average person. However, some will exaggerate the ease of gaining these abilities, or make outrageous claims that do not hold up in reality

    We make no claims of this.


    ----So how are we possibly “BullShido?”

    With regard to Mile High Karate being a McDojo. That’s also ridiculous.

    Definition:
    McDojo is an example of McWords applied to martial arts dojo.[1] The term sometimes is uses as a pejorative term used by some Western martial artists to describe a martial arts school where image or profit is of a higher importance than technical standards. A McDojo (used as a noun) is a martial arts school of any style that uses specific business practices or principles for the purpose of generating revenue for the school. McDojo as an adjective is applied to indicate that a particular action or practice by a school is motivated primarily by financial gain. While using the term McDojo primarily indicates judgment of a school’s financial or marketing practices, it also implies that the teaching standards of such school cater towards the lowest common denominator and may be fraudulent.
    Examples of McDojo practices
    Qualifications
    Most frequently the individual that runs a McDojo will have inflated or self-awarded black belt rankings or will belong to a certifying organization that cannot be traced to a known legitimate school or organization of recognized good standing.
    -----------
    Previously Addressed - See Above.
    Does Not Apply.
    --------------
    Contracts
    One commonly seen McDojo practice in martial arts schools is the use of long-term contracts (6 months or longer in length) to lock students into a monthly payment, usually by direct debit/deposit from a bank account. These contracts are generally structured so that a student would have to die, be seriously injured, or move a minimum distance away from their current place of residence in order to be released from the terms of the deal. Students who are dissatisfied with their training or are unable to continue participating for reasons beyond these can find themselves forced to continue paying for unwanted lessons.
    We do require contracts. Essentially all professionally run, commercial schools do – and, should. The greatest battle that we face is over student attrition. Quality instruction alone does not guarantee that a student will continue (for that matter, neither does a contract.)

    We do not sue on contracts.

    Allow very broad cancellation options.

    We do encourage any and all students to train long enough to achieve a high level of mastery of what we teach.

    Belt testing/ranking fees
    Another frequently seen McDojo practice is charging a fee per belt test or per actual advancement in rank within a particular school. This is frequently combined with creating additional levels of rank within a school, making a school known as a “Belt Factory.”…….. A higher fee for black belt gradings is only justified if it involves the attendance of more examiners than usual, a larger certificate and a better quality belt.
    ----------------------
    Mile High Karate charges no belt fees at all prior to Black Belt. We have no incentive to promote or expense to the student for promotions, association, belts, or certification (certification promoted for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc Degree Black Belts only) At Black Belt we charge fees for the retreat weekend and for the testings to defray costs (Our primary Black Belt test is a three day retreat in Breckenridge, Colorado)
    Cardio and children's classes
    ------------------------
    Many schools use the popularity of martial arts to run “cardio kickboxing” classes that are devoted to giving adult participants an intense workout based on martial arts training. Schools may also host martial arts classes for children that generally run as an after-school activity.
    -----------------------
    We do no Cardio Kickboxing Classes.
    We do no After-School Care.
    We teach comprehensive martial arts classes to children and adults and, do nothing else.
    --------------------------
    Equipment requirements/embargos
    Some schools have a requirement that all students must have training equipment from a particular manufacturer and/or must be purchased through the school itself. Additionally, schools may forbid students from using their own gear that may be of a different style or manufacturer. These schools may receive profits from selling equipment by marking it up from the wholesale price at which they originally purchased it.
    This is a less-likely sign of a McDojo practice, as some sound reasons exist for these requirements/embargos.
    -------------
    We do not “Embargo Equipment” we do however monitor the design and brand for safety and insurance reasons. We primarily encourage students to buy equipment on-line at prices that are typically 25% or so below retail price. We do not consider Equipment to be a source of profitability or something other than a necessary safety requirement to enhance realism in training.

    Perhaps addressing your Definition:

    martial arts school where image or profit is of a higher importance than technical standards..

    First. Any school or Instructor who waters down or fails to have high technical standards – frankly, shouldn’t be teaching. I use many academic examples purely since the institutions named can be openly recognized as having high technical standards. Again Georgetown vs. Community College, Harvard vs. lesser institutions. We have always had and continue to have the highest technical standards.

    A McDojo (used as a noun) is a martial arts school of any style that uses specific business practices or principles for the purpose of generating revenue for the school


    Stephen Oliver
    Mile High Karate
    http://www.MileHighKarate.com
  5. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 12:41pm

    staff
     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by StephenOliver
    I entered this forum due to unfounded claims that my schools were a McDojo – and that we were practicing “bullshido” and that I personally somehow as deemed immoral or unethical. By your standards as I understand them let’s explore:

    Bullshido (I have edited this entry but tried to keep the intent in tact:)


    The term bullshido was popularized by the Bullshido.net website. In recent usage the bilingual portmanteau reflects a claim held by some in the martial arts community that there are those who train to learn how to fight, those who train to pretend they know how to fight, and those who claim that they can learn how to fight on the street without ever having fought in the dojo.

    In the past, the traditional martial arts community had a system of references. This system of references between different schools would effectively vouch for each other's legitimacy, allowing the community to police itself. A tradition in East Asia was that when an unknown and unreferenced school would open in a community, it would be eventually shut down by other schools nearby through direct challenges - this was a way to develop references for legitimate schools, while exposing fraudulent or ineffective schools and forcing them to close before they could harm or defraud potential students.

    School exclusivity

    One traditional practice some at Bullshido.net consider to be bullshido is the demand that students not be a part of any other martial arts school of the same style during their tenure at the school, without permission from the instructor.

    Point 1.
    We don’t force exclusivity, however training at two Tae Kwon Do Schools (or, two of basically the same style) would in most cases be counter productive. We encourage our Black Belts and our Instructors to “Cross Train” in other arts. Many of our Instructors regularly train in Boxing Gyms. We have several with BJJ training including one with a Black Belt in BJJ on staff. We have others with extensive background in escrima. We include cross training in BJJ, Escrima, Kickboxing skills and other non-traditional movement and encourage this among our Instructors and Black Belts.

    I claim no special expertise in or particular interest in BJJ, I’ve always had an interest in Kickboxing and in JKD as well as our base American TKD background with Jhoon Rhee.

    Impractical training methods

    Bullshido is also said, by proponents of the concept, to consist of training methods that are impractical if they are used outside of the context of the bullshido school. Noted martial artists such as Bruce Lee and Jon Bluming have asserted that board-breaking and kata (forms) are of limited benefit towards actual fighting proficiency and often used as "filler" to occupy class time.

    They suggest that the best means to prepare to use one's skills in a realistic situation is through the use of full or hard contact, non-stop sparring with which students' current skill levels can be realistically evaluated.
    Our Training methods are realistic.

    We do Teach Kata (or Hyung) but do not consider that to be practical training for fighting or defense. We rarely, if ever teach board breaking. I do not consider Kata “Filler” It is a valuable approach to coordination & fitness – however, traditional forms typically neither model realistic fighting application nor do they support creating the timing, distance, and reaction time necessary for realistic encounters.

    My Instructor (Jhoon Rhee) introduced padded sparring gear to the Martial Arts community and helped to usher in full-contact kickboxing. This was in part due to influence from Bruce Lee regarding more realistic training and in part due to Pat Worley’s injury in tournament competition – looking for safer training methods.

    Full-Contact sparring is not a reasonable approach for a wide range of participants. We do focus on kids, especially at the younger end – ie. 3 to 9 year olds. We certainly do not let them spar full-contact.

    False/exaggerated lineage

    A common but harmful practice considered to be bullshido is the use of a fictitous or exaggerated lineage to prominent figures in martial arts in order to boost the school's image. Such claims of lineage are typically unverifiable, whereas training under a legitimate school can easily be verified.

    I claim no exaggerated lineage. All of my background – and, some of the background of staff & instructors is openly available on-line or to our students. See: http://www.MileHighKarate.com

    Personally. I began training in Americanized Tae Kwon Do under the Jhoon Rhee system in 1969 in Tulsa, OK. I trained with Jhoon Rhee Black Belts: Bob Olinghouse, Gran Moulder & David Harrelson. Between them they had a mixed background additionally of Goju & Judo among other things.

    Our training in the early days was rather eclectic. Combining military type knife fighting with Judo, Point Fighting, and a mix of other stuff.

    Jhoon Rhee (along with Jeff Smith, and the rest of the Jhoon Rhee Staff) promoted me to 1st Degree Black Belt in 1978. I moved to Washington to attend Georgetown and Teach full-time from 1980, 1981, 1982. I trained in Kickboxing & American Tae Kwon Do & Boxing during that time (most of our instructors were professional Kickboxers.) I moved to Denver in 1983 and open Mile High Karate. Jhoon Rhee promoted me to 6th Degree Black Belt, Jeff Smith promoted me to 7th Degree then 8th Degree Black Belt.

    I’ve trained through most of the under Black Belt Tracy’s kenpo system with Roger Green in Tulsa, done a considerable amount of boxing & kickboxing training (Washington, DC – Jeff Smith & many others, have studied a smattering of Judo, Goju, BJJ, JKD, and Kenpo while claiming no special expertise in any of these.

    Check my references.

    Developing tremendous or mystical abilities from training

    The conditioning resulting from rigorous martial or physical training can allow a person physical abilities beyond those of the average person. However, some will exaggerate the ease of gaining these abilities, or make outrageous claims that do not hold up in reality

    We make no claims of this.


    ----So how are we possibly “BullShido?”

    With regard to Mile High Karate being a McDojo. That’s also ridiculous.

    Definition:
    McDojo is an example of McWords applied to martial arts dojo.[1] The term sometimes is uses as a pejorative term used by some Western martial artists to describe a martial arts school where image or profit is of a higher importance than technical standards. A McDojo (used as a noun) is a martial arts school of any style that uses specific business practices or principles for the purpose of generating revenue for the school. McDojo as an adjective is applied to indicate that a particular action or practice by a school is motivated primarily by financial gain. While using the term McDojo primarily indicates judgment of a school’s financial or marketing practices, it also implies that the teaching standards of such school cater towards the lowest common denominator and may be fraudulent.
    Examples of McDojo practices
    Qualifications
    Most frequently the individual that runs a McDojo will have inflated or self-awarded black belt rankings or will belong to a certifying organization that cannot be traced to a known legitimate school or organization of recognized good standing.
    -----------
    Previously Addressed - See Above.
    Does Not Apply.
    --------------
    Contracts
    One commonly seen McDojo practice in martial arts schools is the use of long-term contracts (6 months or longer in length) to lock students into a monthly payment, usually by direct debit/deposit from a bank account. These contracts are generally structured so that a student would have to die, be seriously injured, or move a minimum distance away from their current place of residence in order to be released from the terms of the deal. Students who are dissatisfied with their training or are unable to continue participating for reasons beyond these can find themselves forced to continue paying for unwanted lessons.
    We do require contracts. Essentially all professionally run, commercial schools do – and, should. The greatest battle that we face is over student attrition. Quality instruction alone does not guarantee that a student will continue (for that matter, neither does a contract.)

    We do not sue on contracts.

    Allow very broad cancellation options.

    We do encourage any and all students to train long enough to achieve a high level of mastery of what we teach.

    Belt testing/ranking fees
    Another frequently seen McDojo practice is charging a fee per belt test or per actual advancement in rank within a particular school. This is frequently combined with creating additional levels of rank within a school, making a school known as a “Belt Factory.”…….. A higher fee for black belt gradings is only justified if it involves the attendance of more examiners than usual, a larger certificate and a better quality belt.
    ----------------------
    Mile High Karate charges no belt fees at all prior to Black Belt. We have no incentive to promote or expense to the student for promotions, association, belts, or certification (certification promoted for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc Degree Black Belts only) At Black Belt we charge fees for the retreat weekend and for the testings to defray costs (Our primary Black Belt test is a three day retreat in Breckenridge, Colorado)
    Cardio and children's classes
    ------------------------
    Many schools use the popularity of martial arts to run “cardio kickboxing” classes that are devoted to giving adult participants an intense workout based on martial arts training. Schools may also host martial arts classes for children that generally run as an after-school activity.
    -----------------------
    We do no Cardio Kickboxing Classes.
    We do no After-School Care.
    We teach comprehensive martial arts classes to children and adults and, do nothing else.
    --------------------------
    Equipment requirements/embargos
    Some schools have a requirement that all students must have training equipment from a particular manufacturer and/or must be purchased through the school itself. Additionally, schools may forbid students from using their own gear that may be of a different style or manufacturer. These schools may receive profits from selling equipment by marking it up from the wholesale price at which they originally purchased it.
    This is a less-likely sign of a McDojo practice, as some sound reasons exist for these requirements/embargos.
    -------------
    We do not “Embargo Equipment” we do however monitor the design and brand for safety and insurance reasons. We primarily encourage students to buy equipment on-line at prices that are typically 25% or so below retail price. We do not consider Equipment to be a source of profitability or something other than a necessary safety requirement to enhance realism in training.

    Perhaps addressing your Definition:

    martial arts school where image or profit is of a higher importance than technical standards..

    First. Any school or Instructor who waters down or fails to have high technical standards – frankly, shouldn’t be teaching. I use many academic examples purely since the institutions named can be openly recognized as having high technical standards. Again Georgetown vs. Community College, Harvard vs. lesser institutions. We have always had and continue to have the highest technical standards.

    A McDojo (used as a noun) is a martial arts school of any style that uses specific business practices or principles for the purpose of generating revenue for the school


    Stephen Oliver
    Mile High Karate
    http://www.MileHighKarate.com
    My quote many pages ago

    I don't buy it. Respect for the man for at least addressing the issue but I don't think you fully understand what goes on here. This is not a MMA only site. I as a traditional instructor would not be here if that was true.

    To reverse the quote that you retorted with Philosophy without martial arts is just Philosophy. Sorry, it doesn't cut it hear. As a marketing person I give you two thumbs up as a martial artist, well I really don't know you well enough to test your skills. What kind of teacher are you though? I've been to those schools which have followed "your ways" and even if you could produce a few legit schools, most of them that I've found have been, you've guessed it, Mcdojo.

    I run two successful schools and I get your literature all the time, as a matter of fact when I first opened one of my fellow instructors brought some of your material to me. After looking at it, I threw it out. I will not compromise my integrity for the almighty dollar. I've been open for over 12 years now and have three establishment, one full time school and two branch off. I get the money that I deserve, I get the students and my tuition is $50 below that of the current market. I love watching peoples faces after they've gone to the other schools payed their super tuition and then come to me and see that money doesn't always buy the best.

    If you want to keep pushing this stuff on everybody go ahead but I'm not buying it. And stop sending me ****, damn, almost everyweek I get this seminar **** in the mail.
    I've been to your site Mr. Oliver, I'm not sure whether I believe you or not. I usually save that opinion for an actual visitation to your school. It's you that I don't like Mr. Oliver. I have a biased image of you and your kind. I freely admit this but I am a fair person, I will reserve judgement of you skills when I've actually seen it and have proof. Did I mention those Satan stories?

    Mile High Karate charges no belt fees at all prior to Black Belt. We have no incentive to promote or expense to the student for promotions, association, belts, or certification (certification promoted for 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc Degree Black Belts only) At Black Belt we charge fees for the retreat weekend and for the testings to defray costs (Our primary Black Belt test is a three day retreat in Breckenridge, Colorado)
    Cardio and children's classes
    You forgot to mention the part where it's technically included in their membership.
    Sooooo, how much for the retreat?
  6. StephenOliver is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 12:58pm


     Style: Amer. TKD, Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by Omega the Merciless
    My quote many pages ago



    I've been to your site Mr. Oliver, I'm not sure whether I believe you or not. I usually save that opinion for an actual visitation to your school. It's you that I don't like Mr. Oliver. I have a biased image of you and your kind. I freely admit this but I am a fair person, I will reserve judgement of you skills when I've actually seen it and have proof.
    Feeling's mutual. My biases flow in the opposite direction. We can agree to disagree.

    Stephen Oliver.
  7. Kintanon is offline
    Kintanon's Avatar

    Yes, I am smarter than you are.

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    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 12:59pm

    supporting memberstaff
     Style: TKD, BJJ

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Not to pick a fight with Omega, but pretty much the ONLY irritating thing this guy does based on the evidence we have is charge $200+ per month for his lessons. I think he is clearly in the realm of Overpriced but decent training. And if the customer service is excellent many people would feel they are getting a good deal. It looks like your only beef is with his marketing practices. I despise intrusive and annoying marketing as much as the next guy, but it doesn't really reflect on his ability to run a martial arts school. I would say our next step should be to send someone in the area to visit one of his schools and write up a review of the training itself so we can see what people are getting for their $200.

    Kintanon
  8. StephenOliver is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 1:00pm


     Style: Amer. TKD, Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Quote Originally Posted by OnceLost
    Promote the perception of the deadly, anyway...
    Interesting quote.
    Not really what the parents of the 7 years olds are most interested in accomplishing.
  9. StephenOliver is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 1:05pm


     Style: Amer. TKD, Kickboxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    Funny how he keeps pushing all of his biases but, we as a group are being unfair.

    By the way Oliver my sister went to a Junior College. She graduated with a Masters degree from Georgetown. So, obviously you are still going by the 70's bias of crappy Community Colleges.


    Time for an update sir.[/quote]

    Yes, And I'm quite sure that:
    1. She paid a lower tuition at the Community College.
    2. Viewed the Community College as a stepping stone to a better college.
    3. And, was pleased to move up to Georgetown.
    And,
    4. Was willing and apparently able to pay the appropriate tuition.

    Stephen Oliver.
  10. Omega Supreme is offline

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    Posted On:
    2/01/2007 1:08pm

    staff
     Style: Chinese Boxing

    --
    Hell yeah! Hell no!
    So I looked at that definition of Mcdojo and I was thinking it was missing a key component as arguable as it is I do have to point out this on your website:

    "My son Nick started when he was 7 years old-now he's 18, a 3rd degree Black Belt....."


    Not a Mcdojo or bullshido huh? Okay if you say so....
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